Posted By TheJan on 22 Feb 2010 08:09 AM
I agree with you, Zsych. What's so cool on being average? I used to think that average was good when i was younger - i just wanted to fit in and had the feeling i was strange. But now - if another person wants to be average - that's ok for me. But i myself would not want that - i want to be like i am, not like every one else. If others don't accept me like i am, then i don't need them. A friend once said: "If someone does not like you the way you are, then they obviously don't deserve you." That statement really rocked my life.

You already are average, meaning not much better and not much worse than most other people - you're just YOU. That's what average means to me, not that you're not being yourself or you wanna fit in, or that you deserve only average things. 
 

I dont think confidence should come from being above others...  it's never lasting thing...

Posted By Zsych on 22 Feb 2010 08:14 AM
@xnfp: There is a difference between being average, and believing you are average. Average, is ordinary, is nothing special. An acceptance of your self as average is not an attitude conductive to your growth.

 

yeah, again - as i said ; we have different definition of word average... obviously.

 

p.s. many would argue that PART of the attitude for growth IS actually accepting your average-ness (meaning, your flaws).... so...

 

No, at any given time, some people are better than the average, and some people are lesser than the average. Some are more productive and successful, some are less.

Some people like to believe that people are equal that for every gift you have a weakness, balancing things out. Amusing religious idea though it may be, its not true. Saying that humans are all equal is much the same as saying that humans and gorillas are equal or that humans and ants, or humans and germs are equal.

Posted By Zsych on 22 Feb 2010 10:08 AM
No, at any given time, some people are better than the average, and some people are lesser than the average. Some are more productive and successful, some are less.

Some people like to believe that people are equal that for every gift you have a weakness, balancing things out. Amusing religious idea though it may be, its not true. Saying that humans are all equal is much the same as saying that humans and gorillas are equal or that humans and ants, or humans and germs are equal.

 

Okay... Of course some people are more talented, have higher IQ, are better looking, better sense of humour (but even they have many flaws!), while others are ugly, very low IQ etc... but if it was that simple then having confidence would be entitled for first group, and it isnt.

Most people should think of themselves high like the OP, or else what's the point of living...

If extremely gifted person has for ex. 87 flaws..and 300 gifts,  and extremely retarded person has 389 flaws and 50 gifts.... it's much easier for first person but both have ground to accept their flaws and praise their gifts and think of themselves as awesome.

not to mention most people fall in between and not in those 2 extremes.

 

Self acceptance is not so much related to how talented are you, this is why it's called acceptance. because you have to accept flaws.

 

and other thing is.. when you meet anonymous new people you can never be THAT sure that you're above them (cos you meet average people), why would you be sure? you dont know them. never been in their head. it's very likely they are talented as well.

Well, I would agree that everyone should have a positive view of themselves.

I'm not an NF - happiness is not a valid goal for me - not by itself anyway. Acknowledging your nature, and working towards self improvement, I understand. Being happy with whoever you are, and not wanting more, I don't really approve of.

I dont think confidence should come from being above others... it's never lasting thing...

I don't get my confidence from being 'above' others. I get my confidence from being myself and standing up for it. I think it is a bad thing to get your confidence from the view others have on you - there will always be people who don't like you, don't like your skin color, the clothes you wear, your friends, etc.
If you stop living your life and change so that they like you, then you are already dead.

On the average definiton, i think we really have a different definiton. My definition of average contains that there will be something below-average and above-average. 'Everybody is worth the same' would be what you are trying to say?
For me, 'average' has a kind of bad touch - it's like saying: "You are average. You are like everyone else. You are a clone. You don't have your own personality. Your personality is like that of everyone else." Or is that what you are trying to say? I hope not, it would be a very sad world indeed.

I get heated up by this discussion - in a good way. Keep it going.

Posted By TheJan on 22 Feb 2010 11:43 AM

I dont think confidence should come from being above others... it's never lasting thing...

I don't get my confidence from being 'above' others. I get my confidence from being myself and standing up for it. I think it is a bad thing to get your confidence from the view others have on you - there will always be people who don't like you, don't like your skin color, the clothes you wear, your friends, etc.
If you stop living your life and change so that they like you, then you are already dead.

On the average definiton, i think we really have a different definiton. My definition of average contains that there will be something below-average and above-average. 'Everybody is worth the same' would be what you are trying to say?
For me, 'average' has a kind of bad touch - it's like saying: "You are average. You are like everyone else. You are a clone. You don't have your own personality. Your personality is like that of everyone else." Or is that what you are trying to say? I hope not, it would be a very sad world indeed.

I get heated up by this discussion - in a good way. Keep it going.

No, I am not trying to say that. And exactly the bolded part, your definition of average, proves that you have distored (not severely) definition of OTHER people, meaning that you think most other people are clones, or they dont have their personality... like you know what someone's personality is.

 

Why do you think people are clones? Or they are like everybody else? It's ridiculous. Yes, some people are more intelligent, or interesting.. some are less... but if you look at the bolded part again you're defining "average" trough social prejudice - social construct, abstract concept, something that simply doesnt exist in reality.  Something that Jung called collective conscious... so collective conscious opinion that is socially accepted is that averege people are without personality, clones... and yet every person has little universe within their heads... their thoughts, dreams, feelings, opinions.. and are NOT like everybody else.

Sorry if i went on a tangent a bit, it's just how i look it... i wish i could be more simple and simply think how i'm not average, a clone like other little brainwashed sheeps....  

 

to put it simpler : defining your self, and self worth partly by comparisson with others (and calling yourself "not average" means exactly that) is not really ultimate solution to me.... but i'm maybe too idealistic...

Posted By Zsych on 22 Feb 2010 10:40 AM
Well, I would agree that everyone should have a positive view of themselves.

I'm not an NF - happiness is not a valid goal for me - not by itself anyway. Acknowledging your nature, and working towards self improvement, I understand. Being happy with whoever you are, and not wanting more, I don't really approve of.

 

 I know it's very different for NTs... your world is very abstract and fascinating to me.. I couldnt at first believe that someone simply doesnt care (much) about feelings etc.. and has pretty different area of interest..

 

and i agree... wanting more is all i'm up for...

Posted By Zsych on 22 Feb 2010 10:40 AM
Well, I would agree that everyone should have a positive view of themselves.

I'm not an NF - happiness is not a valid goal for me - not by itself anyway. Acknowledging your nature, and working towards self improvement, I understand. Being happy with whoever you are, and not wanting more, I don't really approve of.

 

I would have agreed with that so much until, like... 3-4 months ago.  I'm just not so sure now, because I'm starting to think people grow more when they're happy with who they are at that moment than they do if they're not.  Completely counter-intuitive, I know, but it does seem to be the case, much of the time.

Posted By cryptonia on 22 Feb 2010 03:55 PM

Posted By Zsych on 22 Feb 2010 10:40 AM
Well, I would agree that everyone should have a positive view of themselves.

I'm not an NF - happiness is not a valid goal for me - not by itself anyway. Acknowledging your nature, and working towards self improvement, I understand. Being happy with whoever you are, and not wanting more, I don't really approve of.

 

I would have agreed with that so much until, like... 3-4 months ago.  I'm just not so sure now, because I'm starting to think people grow more when they're happy with who they are at that moment than they do if they're not.  Completely counter-intuitive, I know, but it does seem to be the case, much of the time.

who you are now is often just how you act now, not who you really are.. i think people grow best in direction towards themselves... so becoming more themselves...

 

btw this is what i was saying when talking about average.. etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7FbOT-FAk

(around 0:50 mins)

Posted By xnfp on 22 Feb 2010 01:56 PM

Posted By TheJan on 22 Feb 2010 11:43 AM

I dont think confidence should come from being above others... it's never lasting thing...

I don't get my confidence from being 'above' others. I get my confidence from being myself and standing up for it. I think it is a bad thing to get your confidence from the view others have on you - there will always be people who don't like you, don't like your skin color, the clothes you wear, your friends, etc.
If you stop living your life and change so that they like you, then you are already dead.

On the average definiton, i think we really have a different definiton. My definition of average contains that there will be something below-average and above-average. 'Everybody is worth the same' would be what you are trying to say?
For me, 'average' has a kind of bad touch - it's like saying: "You are average. You are like everyone else. You are a clone. You don't have your own personality. Your personality is like that of everyone else." Or is that what you are trying to say? I hope not, it would be a very sad world indeed.

I get heated up by this discussion - in a good way. Keep it going.

No, I am not trying to say that. And exactly the bolded part, your definition of average, proves that you have distored (not severely) definition of OTHER people, meaning that you think most other people are clones, or they dont have their personality... like you know what someone's personality is.

 

Why do you think people are clones? Or they are like everybody else? It's ridiculous. Yes, some people are more intelligent, or interesting.. some are less... but if you look at the bolded part again you're defining "average" trough social prejudice - social construct, abstract concept, something that simply doesnt exist in reality.  Something that Jung called collective conscious... so collective conscious opinion that is socially accepted is that averege people are without personality, clones... and yet every person has little universe within their heads... their thoughts, dreams, feelings, opinions.. and are NOT like everybody else.

Sorry if i went on a tangent a bit, it's just how i look it... i wish i could be more simple and simply think how i'm not average, a clone like other little brainwashed sheeps....  

 

to put it simpler : defining your self, and self worth partly by comparisson with others (and calling yourself "not average" means exactly that) is not really ultimate solution to me.... but i'm maybe too idealistic...

I am sorry if i sounded like that, but if everyone is average, then what is above-average or under-average? If there is no above-average or under-average, then why call everyone average in the first place? Why give them the label of being average? I am sorry if these questions seem kind of dumb, but that does not come clear in your answer. Or i just didn't see it.

The other part with the people not liking you... I might agree that i exaggerated there. I figured out tonight that i had subconciously repressed my need to be liked. (Overdoing it with that attitude a bit) That does not make my statement about living one's life as you want it any less true, however.

And i certainly don't see other people as brainwashed sheeps, as i don't want to be seen as a brainwashed sheep myself. I would be a hypocrite. lol.

Now somethingh that is on the original topic and also relates to the above in a far fetched way: (This is going to be a long post)

I resist being labeled, i think. Which is why i try to not label others much. I wrote try, because it is difficult not to label anyone - for example you think someone is stupid, you labeled the person as stupid. Then the person says something strange and you think 'This person is stupid', reinforcing your belief that the person is stupid. If you think the person is smart, and they say somethign strange, you will think twice, or maybe even think 'This person is funny.'. So now you think: "Hey this person is smart AND funny". So negative impressions lead to further negative impressions which reinforce the overall negative impression, and positive impressions lead to further positive impressions which reinforce the overall positve impression.

That is also why looks always make a difference. For example, you think a girl is pretty. Positive label. This leads to you thinking positively about her and then if she says something strange you are likely to think she is funny. ("Wow! She's pretty AND funny") If she was ugly (negative label), you were more likely to think she was stupid ("Ugh! She's ugly AND stupid"). The impressions add up over time and it becomes harder and harder to change them. The first impression is the most important, as it determines how following impressions are evaluated.

It even gets more interesting when a guy is buying a really pretty girl he doesn't know a drink in a bar/dance club. The overall impression she is getting is "he wants to get me drunk so he can abduct me and f**k me." Now, if the guy already knew the girl thoroughly and she thinks he is a great guy, she is more likely to think. "What a nice guy he is" (now that's not neccessarily a good thing, but still way better than the above, btw i had it that girls bought me a drink in return, but those were girls i knew for a long time, like 5 years or so, and we were friends, so it is an entirely different situation) Compliments also only work if she already is thinking the guy is a great guy, good looking etc. because if she thinks he's an idiot, she will think the guy wants to manipulate her and trick her to sleep with him or trick her to like him, or just being idiotic because he's an idiot. Or she will think the guy has no backbone, further reinforcing the impression that he is an idiot.

So... a good first impression leads to other good impressions, while a bad first impression leads to other bad impressions. Get the first impression (you have like 3 seconds until they have their first impression of you, it goes really fast from my experience) right and you have almost won when meeting new people. You can also let a friend introduce you in a good way. This way they get a first impression before even talking to you, and you don't have to all the work of making a good impression (if you are lazy). Or, take a gal friend to the party which can then talk to the girls you don't know. (If a guy talks to a girl he doesn't know, it has the general 'flair' of picking her up, while a girl talking to another girl is not a big problem - unless the girls think she is lesbian. This takes away the first impression of "he wants to pick me up, i need to resist!" and when your friend then introduces you, there already is a good first impression there) Same can work for a girl taking a guy friend to a party, although i think in this situation the benefit is not that big as the other way around (girls are generally less "threathening" to guys as guys are to girls).

Being introduced by a friend also helps greatly if you are a shy person.

I know that i cannot evade this whole impressions mechanic, and that we all have at least part of that mechanic (ok there might be exceptions, but they are really rare), but i try to atleast not judge persons as soon as i see them or hear one thing about them and try to double think about the impressions i get from other people. That's the best i can do.

Interestingly, i started this with the general idea of meeting new people, but then came to the guy-girl pick-up-situation quickly, because that is a very good example to explain it with. It is fascinating how it all works. How impressions create other  impressions which then create further impression... Also, how socializing works in itself is really fascinating.

I am sorry if i sounded like that, but if everyone is average, then what is above-average or under-average? If there is no above-average or under-average, then why call everyone average in the first place? Why give them the label of being average? I am sorry if these questions seem kind of dumb, but that does not come clear in your answer. Or i just didn't see it.

 

i agree about not-labeling people, calling all people average is not actually labeling because it eliminates categories so you're left with one.

i was just exploring topic, not that i think you thought all in a way i SAID it i was just throwing out all possibilities that might be behind your words. (it's the way i torture myself too. )

 

The other part with the people not liking you... I might agree that i exaggerated there. I figured out tonight that i had subconciously repressed my need to be liked. (Overdoing it with that attitude a bit) That does not make my statement about living one's life as you want it any less true, however.

And i certainly don't see other people as brainwashed sheeps, as i don't want to be seen as a brainwashed sheep myself. I would be a hypocrite. lol.

Now somethingh that is on the original topic and also relates to the above in a far fetched way: (This is going to be a long post)

I resist being labeled, i think. Which is why i try to not label others much. I wrote try, because it is difficult not to label anyone - for example you think someone is stupid, you labeled the person as stupid. Then the person says something strange and you think 'This person is stupid', reinforcing your belief that the person is stupid. If you think the person is smart, and they say somethign strange, you will think twice, or maybe even think 'This person is funny.'. So now you think: "Hey this person is smart AND funny". So negative impressions lead to further negative impressions which reinforce the overall negative impression, and positive impressions lead to further positive impressions which reinforce the overall positve impression.

That is also why looks always make a difference. For example, you think a girl is pretty. Positive label. This leads to you thinking positively about her and then if she says something strange you are likely to think she is funny. ("Wow! She's pretty AND funny") If she was ugly (negative label), you were more likely to think she was stupid ("Ugh! She's ugly AND stupid"). The impressions add up over time and it becomes harder and harder to change them. The first impression is the most important, as it determines how following impressions are evaluated.

It even gets more interesting when a guy is buying a really pretty girl he doesn't know a drink in a bar/dance club. The overall impression she is getting is "he wants to get me drunk so he can abduct me and f**k me." Now, if the guy already knew the girl thoroughly and she thinks he is a great guy, she is more likely to think. "What a nice guy he is" (now that's not neccessarily a good thing, but still way better than the above, btw i had it that girls bought me a drink in return, but those were girls i knew for a long time, like 5 years or so, and we were friends, so it is an entirely different situation) Compliments also only work if she already is thinking the guy is a great guy, good looking etc. because if she thinks he's an idiot, she will think the guy wants to manipulate her and trick her to sleep with him or trick her to like him, or just being idiotic because he's an idiot. Or she will think the guy has no backbone, further reinforcing the impression that he is an idiot.

So... a good first impression leads to other good impressions, while a bad first impression leads to other bad impressions. Get the first impression (you have like 3 seconds until they have their first impression of you, it goes really fast from my experience) right and you have almost won when meeting new people. You can also let a friend introduce you in a good way. This way they get a first impression before even talking to you, and you don't have to all the work of making a good impression (if you are lazy). Or, take a gal friend to the party which can then talk to the girls you don't know. (If a guy talks to a girl he doesn't know, it has the general 'flair' of picking her up, while a girl talking to another girl is not a big problem - unless the girls think she is lesbian. This takes away the first impression of "he wants to pick me up, i need to resist!" and when your friend then introduces you, there already is a good first impression there) Same can work for a girl taking a guy friend to a party, although i think in this situation the benefit is not that big as the other way around (girls are generally less "threathening" to guys as guys are to girls).

Being introduced by a friend also helps greatly if you are a shy person.

I know that i cannot evade this whole impressions mechanic, and that we all have at least part of that mechanic (ok there might be exceptions, but they are really rare), but i try to atleast not judge persons as soon as i see them or hear one thing about them and try to double think about the impressions i get from other people. That's the best i can do.

Interestingly, i started this with the general idea of meeting new people, but then came to the guy-girl pick-up-situation quickly, because that is a very good example to explain it with. It is fascinating how it all works. How impressions create other  impressions which then create further impression... Also, how socializing works in itself is really fascinating.

yeah I agree with you on all that.  it is fascinating

 

One friend who was going to therapist told me that he gave him advice to think of himself at least A BIT above others. Not much. But you know, a bit. It probably works, and it probably is what you're desciribing in the OP... and it's not degrading other people more like... preparing yourself for possible kicks.

 

your thinking process reminds me much of my own, btw.