We get lonely too, once in a millennium.

You can probably make that x a T, then, in all likelihood. The Fs seem starved for deep relationships, and seem to get lonely after a fairly short time with no very serious friends. I've gone ~3 weeks without seeing anyone besides my family, though, and still feel quite fine (though I'll be looking forward to going back to college, in 2 more weeks).

I also think the INT types are fairly well-suited for long relationships. The IN makes actually having a physical person there almost irrelevant, compared to knowing that they're "really" there, if not in body, and the T takes away the need to express your love on a localized person, like the Fs want to. Not to mention, INTxs are pretty neglectful in their relationships, by other peoples' standards, lol.

Posted By cryptonia on 09 Aug 2009 12:25 PM
You can probably make that x a T, then, in all likelihood. The Fs seem starved for deep relationships, and seem to get lonely after a fairly short time with no very serious friends.

Actually, if that is the case, I am definitely F.

Actually, if that is the case, I am definitely F.

Do you want me to change your MBTI?

INFP?

ooh'k, cool then . I wouldn't take it as a "definitely", cause I was listing off traits that INTPs and INFPs often have, but going by the probability, you probably are. There's a lot of confusion among the INxPs and the T/F gap, for... well, mostly just because people do what I did--list off traits that most have, and people think "...but I do both of these..."

I'm trying to hammer down the differences between Ti and Fi more precisely, since INTPs are Ti-dominant and Fi is their weakest, most deeply unconscious function, and vice versa with INFPs... but the two functions are really, really hard to distinguish between. I asked a psychologist from INTPforum, but he said he really wanted to do a good job answering, so it might take a bit, and he hasn't answered yet... but when he does, I'll try to help you figure it out (if you care. If not, that's cool too)

Posted By sbalbom on 09 Aug 2009 12:58 PM

Actually, if that is the case, I am definitely F.

Do you want me to change your MBTI?

INFP?

No, I'm not sure if I trust cryptonia's piece of information that much. I have too many INTP and INFP traits to say with certainty that I am F.

yeah, please don't, lol. I even thought when I was writing that "talking like this is what causes all sorts of these misunderstandings online in the first place."

--already evident by the fact that distrusting my information is a very INTP-common-trait

I'm still not quite sure what the real difference is between Ti and Fi. Some of the things I have read seem to indicate that I use primarily Ti and have absolutely no respect for Fi, but I don't believe it. Those are the things that make Fi out to be selfish, irrational, and random, obsessed with a subjective version of morality that has no solid foundation and rests solely on the momentary whims of the individual. The descriptions I am more likely to believe usually indicate that I have a strong use of Fi and that I consider Ti to be concerned with trivialities instead of what actually matters, since many descriptions that say Ti has no interest at all in people's feelings or in promoting spiritual growth, and that Ti cares only about truth, even in situations where truth is circumstantially opposed to a greater value like love or mercy. Either Fi isn't what I think it is, or Ti isn't, and I think which description I choose is entirely dependent on whether it was written with a Ti bias or an Fi bias. I believe in an objective morality with a solid, unchanging foundation upon which all other moral perceptions are based. I monitor my conscience carefully and consider all of the possible ramifications of a belief system when I am uncertain about which values are more important than others. I believe that love is the ultimate good, and that truth should act in its service, also as a necessary part of the ideal condition. What am I? Fi-dominant, or Ti-dominant?

-shrug- I stand by my belief that it's easiest to tell your type for sure with descriptions of the types under stress...but in this case, I have a simple test:

You discover your best friend has been stealing money from you, and when you catch them, they admit they've been doing so for some time, and have taken a few hundred dollars over the past few months. They apologize and promise to pay you back and swear it's for an important cause.
Do you:
A. Demand the money he just pocketed back, and kick him out, regardless of what kind of trouble he's in.
B. Allow him his secrets. He must've had some reason not to tell you, but offer to help him out of the trouble he's in.
C. Insist that he tell you the whole story, but expect nothing but a good laugh out it.
D. Listen to his story sympathically, all the while trying to come up with some way he can get himself out of trouble without stealing anymore. Let him know it's not ok, but you won't abandon him in his time of need.

>.> INFPs will generally verbalize their disapproval over someone's bad decision, but will not abandon a friend in trouble, even if they've behaved poorly.

INTPs...will kick that crap to the curb. It would be completely different if the friend had come for help in the first place, but the dishonesty of the behavior will lose all trust from an INT*.

-_-;;; In conclusion, Fs are less likely to leave a toxic relationship until it's obvious things aren't going to get any better. Ts have no problem walking away from bad people.

That might be very true, lol. Tbh, most INTPs are too timid and not forceful enough to actually kick someone out or break up a friendship with them, but I do think that I would pretty much lose trust an respect for that person if they did that, and slowly grow to resent them as pushy or irritating, sticking around and forcing their relationship on me when they're clearly not welcome. I don't think I'd be as closed off as to be like "nope. You get no respect or trust again, ever," since that's more of a J thing, but it'd probably take a really, really long time of them being trustworthy and honest--or else maybe a concentrated dose of going out of their way to show care or help me when it was inconvenient for them--until I loosened back up around them.

...it just struck me how repulsive that attitude is :\

Is it any more repulsive then keeping someone around who is taking advantage of you?

eh... sorta? Letting people get away with that makes them further set in their ways, and allows them to flourish by leeching off of you, etc. In that sense, I wish I could see intentions as clearly as actions, so that it wouldn't be a problem.

remember, though, I have religious beliefs to mix into this. Constantly taking advantage of, leeching off of, lying to, etc, are the same things I do to God. It sort of(?) seems repulsive to let people leech off of you, but it depends quite a bit on your point of view. The way that I think I'd handle them (though, admittedly, I don't think anyone has ever done anything resembling that to me), it's both potentially-unforgiving (if I misjudge their attitudes,), as well as very deeply hypocritical (for me)--which also makes it dangerous.

If someone were kept around constantly taking advantage of me, there are a lot of conflicting things to weigh. First you'd have to specify whether I thought they were most likely doing that or not. If I didn't, then I don't see anything wrong with it at all; I didn't think they were taking advantage of me, so clearly it's not my fault, but also that I believe every time they take advantage to me returns to testify against them--which obviously happens more and more as they realize they can. In that sense, it may give God the example needed to prove them wrong when they say "but if I were just given enough time I would have knocked it off"---it gives him an easy place to point to and say "liar. Look here." If their excuses are silenced by their behavior, then I don't think it's that repulsive at all.

It's really only if you know they're consistently taking advantage of you that it seems like a toss-up on what you should do. It depends greatly (I think) on how much you understand (do you also know that their persistent abuse of people damages them in the end, too, or not? ...those kinds of things). I'm not sure how repulsive I'd think that case is.

so.... I dunno. These ae just preliminary thoughts (obviously, since you just asked the question, lol), but I'm not really sure how to answer it. All I do know is that I saw the hypocrisy that makes the way that I think I would have handled it so gross. That doesn't really mean that I'd immediately flip-flop and start handling it like the Fs would... but just that I have to find some sort of new mindset to settle into.

Now we're getting into a deeper discussion than I intended. I'm only suggesting which would be the bigger issue. To an INFP, the means may be justifiable if the story is plausible. The cause becomes the important part....and therefore extricating the other person from their problems takes priority over the question of trust.

A T is more likely to address the issue of trust first...because in a way, the friend isn't just taking advantage, they're also putting into question the ability of the T to help them.

In both cases, I think the person would be hurt that the friend couldn't tell them that they were in trouble....but NTs are capable people....and if anyone can help find a solution, it should be them...right? Going around them to take what you need from them without actually asking them for help is almost like saying you don't trust their ability to really do anything for you. Or am I completely off with INTPs?

My answer is 'D'. Is that unusual for an INT* then?

oh, haha sorry. Everything rings some sort of religious bells in me, which's why I sorta had that side-comment about my mindset being repulsive. That was really dumb of me to think you were thinking the same thing and asking about it, though, lol--nobody ever is

hmm... I think you're a little off(?), because it sounds like you're fusing together INTPs and Fi. "Attacks on the self," at least, have never registered with me before.... er, I don't think at all, until I met with snail and talked to her a lot. That's why people can criticize our work and say things that other types would consider offensive to us, and we don't really notice. I think.... if I had to describe my feeling when I imagine the situation, it's a lot less "you're hurting me and my pride by doing this..." and a lot more "fiery, *how dare you!* People don't do that kind of thing!" Fe-type response. Now that I think about it, that's probably one of those emotional, almost childish and raw emotional outbursts they say INTPs hit after a while. The denial of our ability/willingness to help fix the problem might be some deeply unconscious, underlying reason for the outburst... but I really can't think of it as anything except just that--an outburst. It would very much lead to the behavior that you mentioned above, though... where the listening to explanations sort of shuts down, and I wouldn't want to deal with them anymore.

>.> I don't know any INTPs to analyze in real life....but I suppose if I was to go with feeling....I'd want to probably go more with what I know about an INFJ as a comparison/contrast between what I know about an INFP?

O.o is Fe just more manipulative?

Posted By alysaria on 11 Aug 2009 01:20 PM
-shrug- I stand by my belief that it's easiest to tell your type for sure with descriptions of the types under stress...but in this case, I have a simple test:

You discover your best friend has been stealing money from you, and when you catch them, they admit they've been doing so for some time, and have taken a few hundred dollars over the past few months. They apologize and promise to pay you back and swear it's for an important cause.
Do you:
A. Demand the money he just pocketed back, and kick him out, regardless of what kind of trouble he's in.
B. Allow him his secrets. He must've had some reason not to tell you, but offer to help him out of the trouble he's in.
C. Insist that he tell you the whole story, but expect nothing but a good laugh out it.
D. Listen to his story sympathically, all the while trying to come up with some way he can get himself out of trouble without stealing anymore. Let him know it's not ok, but you won't abandon him in his time of need.

>.> INFPs will generally verbalize their disapproval over someone's bad decision, but will not abandon a friend in trouble, even if they've behaved poorly.

INTPs...will kick that crap to the curb. It would be completely different if the friend had come for help in the first place, but the dishonesty of the behavior will lose all trust from an INT*.

-_-;;; In conclusion, Fs are less likely to leave a toxic relationship until it's obvious things aren't going to get any better. Ts have no problem walking away from bad people.

So I do find out that my best friend has been stealing money from me. It won't come as a surprise to me, because I always suspect the worst of everyone. I'm not very strongly attached to anyone so I won't have too much trouble abandoning this friend even if he is my best friend, however I do not have many friends so I do not wish to lose then ones I have.
I will ask him to tell me the entire story so that I may better understand his motives for stealing. Refusing to tell me the story is the worst thing he could do; if he cannot trust me with the story, I can't be expected to trust that his intentions are good in return. I will likely dissolve the friendship.
If he does have a reasonable explanation, then all is fine. I don't care that much about money anyway. If he can pay me back, that would merely be a bonus. I won't nag at him to pay me back either.
If he has an explanation that I find foolish, he will lose my respect but nothing else.

So what do you make of that?

That is roughly how I would respond, although I might be slightly more hesitant to end the friendship.

^^that post says T, sunrise.

O.o is Fe just more manipulative?

hm... I had a thing on personalitycafe where I used ENFP and ENFJ to show the different types of manipulation. I think of both the F functions as a little manipulative, sometimes. I'll try to see if I can find the post and dig it up.

Posted By thoke on 08 Aug 2009 02:39 AM
Hi qimster, I'm always up for chatting with an ENFP. I should warn you that I am a single man who is looking for something, but I am also keen to make some friends in the process of looking.

*don's a John Cleese voice* are there any women here today?