coralaisly 
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| 14 Nov 2009 09:24 PM |
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What do you think of the people responsible for the horror at the World Trade Center on September 11 being tried in federal court in New York? Why?
Do you believe this is appropriate or do you believe they should be tried in military circumstances? Why?
Do you believe they should be given the same rights as American Citizens? Why? |
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thedeepestblue
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| 15 Nov 2009 04:07 PM |
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Posted By coralaisly on 14 Nov 2009 08:24 PM
What do you think of the people responsible for the horror at the World Trade Center on September 11 being tried in federal court in New York? Why?
Do you believe this is appropriate or do you believe they should be tried in military circumstances? Why?
Yes. These people are murderers, not soldiers.
Do you believe they should be given the same rights as American Citizens? Why?
Yes. They're still people, and even if they don't act as such they should be treated that way. |
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Zsych
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| 10 Jan 2010 06:33 AM |
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As long as there isn't a mis-carriage of justice that allows them to walk away on some technicality. Sure they're people. Perhaps simple minded people, but people all the same.
If a military court were to have the power to give some greater punishment, then perhaps there would be a question of whether an alternative punishment for their crimes is more suitable.
I'm not sure it matters unless they claim they aren't guilty and want to prove it... which admittedly also, they should have a right to, just in case law enforcement didn't find the right people.
Ultimately, IMO, you can't lower your standards. However other people behave, you must behave correctly and in so doing, prove yourself better than them. |
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sbalbom
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| 11 Jan 2010 12:43 AM |
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Under the Geneva conventions the President has the right to try enemy combatant in military or civilian court. Bush elected to have some of them tried in the military court. Obama civilian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
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alysaria
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| 11 Jan 2010 02:07 PM |
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Personal vendetta? >.> Since the punishment for war crimes no longer includes capital punishment.
Still, to consider it an act of war, war would have to have been declared....right? I mean...if a fragment group of Catholics from Ireland conspired and blew up a military installation for their own warped views on their religion, we wouldn't treat them as military combatants, regardless of the target and any military training they may have had...right? We're not at war with a religious group....a small cell within the whole doesn't make the whole an enemy. |
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Zsych
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| 11 Jan 2010 03:08 PM |
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War against the grouping called Terrorists  Capital Punishment not being a valid option for punishment is just incredibly lame. Not to say that I would necessarily blame these people for how they might have been brought up but still... death sentences send a stronger message. (except in this case, where they'd be considered martyrs... a humiliating living out of life might work much better for these characters) |
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alysaria
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| 11 Jan 2010 06:53 PM |
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Who's to say they won't become martyrs to their own terrorist group? Not that it makes much difference...zealots are zealots. |
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sbalbom
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| 12 Jan 2010 11:40 PM |
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I'm not a big fan of the death penalty... from my ron paul avatar you can guys I am quite against powerful federal states. However I do support the death penalty for high treason Plus there is a very high burden of proof here in the US for it. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted. |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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cryptonia
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| 13 Jan 2010 06:30 AM |
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wait.... really? You can be convicted of treason by helping people, if they're considered "enemies" by the state?
That's a little.... frightening. |
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| Pain shared is pain divided. Joy shared is joy doubled. |
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sbalbom
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| 13 Jan 2010 11:02 AM |
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Like passing nuclear secrets to the Russians |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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cryptonia
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| 13 Jan 2010 01:11 PM |
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or letting one of your good Japanese friends hide at your house so they don't get sent to a concentration camp? |
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| Pain shared is pain divided. Joy shared is joy doubled. |
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JHBowden
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| 13 Jan 2010 03:45 PM |
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What do you think of the people responsible for the horror at the World Trade Center on September 11 being tried in federal court in New York? I'd like to know how the benefits of doing this exceed the costs and the risks. As it appears, this looks like a big loss for us and a big win for Team Jihad, no matter what a civilian court decides.
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sbalbom
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| 13 Jan 2010 04:15 PM |
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We look magnanimous to the moderate Muslims and weak to the jehadis.
I think |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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cryptonia
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| 13 Jan 2010 11:30 PM |
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I was actually really annoyed, a few months back, when I heard some tv/radio show or another talking about how they were thinking they might not try them in civilian court because "they might just use the public court-time to bash the US more." Letting "potential criticism" become a viable excuse to prevent someone from getting attention seemed awfully dangerous to me. It's hardly like they can use whatever attention they get to publicly say "everyone who wants to kill a bunch of Americans, go to XYZ location/time so we can organize." If their criticisms are valid, then fine, and if they're not, then ignore them: but preventing them from getting the public eye because they might have bad reasosn that convince people to do something violent anyway...? |
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| Pain shared is pain divided. Joy shared is joy doubled. |
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Zsych
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| 15 Jan 2010 04:09 PM |
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*considers punishment...* Made slaves to weak looking women. Now, I'm not sure how one becomes a slave but... slavery did exist during early Muslim times and a slave wasn't allowed to run away (unfortunately for this case, a slave could ask to be allowed to work his way free at fair wages, if he so wished... could be avoided by increasing the price the owner has to pay to the point that it can't be paid back within the slave's lifetime) What you want to see, is these people humiliated, but not in a way that it seems they're being treated horribly. *starts thinking evilly* Have them gay raped, and then let them go free, back to their terrorist brethren, if they want. With it known what was done to them... of course, you couldn't actually do that in the US. I think a lot of eastern men (or men anywhere) would consider that a pretty terrifying punishment. I think you'd have to be pretty detached to not take something like that badly. (I have a strange mental image of Sbalbom going: You think this is a punishment? Ha! Its just a new experience for me, I'll bloody well enjoy it - *gives guards the finger*) --- @cryptonia: I think the possibility of them bashing the US, is also equally an opportunity to defend the US and explain the US PoV. Its quite possible that a transcript of the trial would make its way to newspapers in the Muslim world. If people chose to read what these people had to say, they might also read what we have to say (among other things that their actions are based in emotional stupidity and violate Islamic teachings... and whether or not that's true would be irrelevant to the fact that this would still be a good propaganda opportunity where you can promote such a view). Of course, you'd need to be able to go against normal process to be able to say such things... which is fine since I can't say I care about how things are currently done anyway  @Saul: I would personally think that strong federal government is good... as long as its competent and trustworthy. The only benefit I'd see in de-centralization is trying to cancel out mistakes, so that where one area is run worse, at least some place runs better.. and you have the off chance of learning from other people's experiments... which would have value if people actually cared to improve their processes. |
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Vanight
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| 19 Apr 2010 05:38 AM |
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Well, I guess one might ask who is responsible for this insanity that seems to be taking over the America of my Grandparents and make some very scrutinizing judgments about their Politics ans world views. Then, find out who the Bureaucrats are and vote for the opposite. Just sayin.... |
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JHBowden
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| 19 Apr 2010 10:55 AM |
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I would personally think that strong federal government is good... as long as its competent and trustworthy. Beware of moralizing impersonal mechanisms. It doesn't matter if a bureaucracy is filled with angels or if a market is filled with devils, it is the incentive structure that needs to be analyzed. Same deal with the competence issue-- a market filled with morons will outperform a central bureaucracy filled with genuises, because a market is self-correcting and a bureaucracy can only adapt snail-speed to conditions that are constantly changing.
The price mechanism ultimately is just a method of coping with human ignorance.
I'm glad Obama backed away from terrorist trials in NYC. Terrorists like al-Masri (just killed in Iraq, yay!) are motivated by religion; they aren't amenable to debate nor inspired by Western effeminacy and self-flagellation. The idea of "political solutions" is just another example of the rationalist fallacy, looking at the world in static formulaic terms of problems/solutions instead of real-time situational trade-offs. The world just isn't a problem in need of a solution. |
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alysaria
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| 19 Apr 2010 11:10 PM |
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It's very easy for Fi to do that.... A major aspect of the function is making value judgments....so underdeveloped Fi can lead to black and white thinking or become a rationalization for potentially flawed beliefs. It's even more dangerous with Ne attached, making connections to justify a Fi judgment on a person or idea. >.> Like superstitions and omens.....or coincidences taken at face value to imply one thing, when they may not even be remotely connected.
Then there's Fundamental Attribution Error, where a person assumes that another's actions are based on who they are rather than any extenuating circumstances.
Person A breeds blue roses and Person B believes roses are sacred and not to be altered. Person A was raised by florists who were progressive and shared their love of flowers with their child, inspiring A to create new blooms. Person B was raised by environmental purists who treasure earth's natural beauty and see changing what is as violating the purity of nature. On their own, they may be opposed, but neither of them are violent...their actions, whether to create or preserve are peaceful for the most part, even if they don't agree. Person B may try to convince Person A that naturally colored blossoms are more beautiful and pure....and Person A may try to sway Person B to the variety that can be obtained through a little bit of cross-breeding...that it doesn't take away from nature, but in fact gives more. Still, neither side has to come to blows over it. It's Person C who adamantly believes that anyone who dares mess with the delicate balance of nature is an corrupter of life and deserves to die.... And Person D, motivated by greed, revenge, or some other entirely selfish reason all their own gives Person C the means to light Person A's greenhouses on fire and beat Person A within an inch of their life. This doesn't make Person B a threat for believing most of the same things Person C does. Person C is a brainwashed zealot. Person D is a malevolent mastermind on a malicious mission to try to force other people to believe what they do out of fear. A terrorist. While on a smaller scale, it's the same basic concept.....and if Person C or D were caught, they would be tried by the American legal system....even if they were from another country. Terrorism isn't a military act. It's a crime. |
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Zsych
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| 20 Apr 2010 08:36 AM |
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I think terrorists like Al-Qaeda, amount to small militaries, and function like most militaries.
I think you can be at war with a terrorist group.
What the best way to deal with them is, is a separate question of course.
IMO, justice is irrelevant. Only the affects of your choices on the future matter. They must be dealt with in a way that reduces problems in the future.
Interestingly, back in the days of early Islam. A lot of battle captives turned to Islam in part because they were actually treated pretty well. I think people like these would be hard to convert, but if you could change their views. That could create interesting problems for those organizations. I think a lot of the problem with these people is ignorance and a simplified world-view. |
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alysaria
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| 20 Apr 2010 11:33 AM |
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INTJs value justice -coughcough smirk- Sorry, I couldn't resist. Hehehehehe XD |
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