I had an interesting discussion with my ESFJ Mother about religion today (I was on ADD pills so I was in a relatively logical mindset). I believe in God (feeling-wise), but I don't intellectually. I want to be able to believe intellectually. At any rate, here's the conversation:
Me- Why do you believe? Because you have faith? Correct?
Mom- Yes
Me-Why do you have faith? Because you choose to have faith? Correct?
Mom- Yes.
Me- Why does anyone choose to have faith? If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, why doesn't he try to convince the people who he knows aren't convinced (And won't ever be covinced unless convinced intellectually) to choose to have faith?  If he created them, and knows we are all different, then why doesn't he try to convince them from their own perspectives, intellectually, if you will, that he's the God he supposedly is? It's almost as if he wasn't even trying to get them to choose to have faith. It's almost as if he's giving them up to hell without a fight.

Other questions that came up:- Why would God create Satan? God has free will too. He's omniscient. He has the power to create in the exact manner he chooses. By that logic, the scenario we are in now (Adam and Eve onward) is the most desirable situation to God.
-Why wouldn't God try to convince Satan and his angels that they were wrong? He just let them leave. God has free will too. Apparently this meant allowing an unkown huge number of angels to go to their inevitible doom without a fight. (Even if the doom is waaaaay in the future). Does he even care about them?
-Is God omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent?
-Is there such a thing as intellectual faith? I see no reason there shouldn't be. It solely requires a very good argument for the existence of God and why he's doing/done what he's doing/done. I would like some good secular support as well.
-Is God a good, kind, fatherlike God who wants us all to go to heaven? I don't know.

That was from the assumption that God exists.
Now if he doesn't exist, this whole discussion is basically pointless. If.

I'm curious about your thoughts. Please help me to resolve this conflict between my feelings and my intellect. I'm so confused as to what I should believe.

Why wouldn't God try to convince Satan and his angels that they were wrong?

Is God a good, kind, fatherlike God who wants us all to go to heaven?

I don't really KNOW anything, nor am I commited to the word God to describe this experience. Words come with so many associations and preconceived notions. But it certainly feels transcendent - like a brief glimpse at Truth, or Essence, or an overpowering (in a good way) energy. It also quells my need to ask further questions on the subject.

I would recommend trying meditation - or start with yoga - you don't really need to get into any doctrine in my opinion. But any sort of activity that puts you in the moment without analysis and with complete awareness and acceptance can bring a similar experience. Before I started doing yoga and meditating (which I still do more in bouts than daily practice sadly), I spent alot of time camping / hiking and had periodic feelings of bliss and developed an openness to the idea that there is something bigger than me at work.

As someone who was an analysis junkie in regards to theology, turning off the brain certainly turned out to be an unexpected path to something more meaningful than debate.

I've found God to be a very personal thing to discover.. For instance, I have had some very near-death experiences on more than one occasion, and I saw God working in both occasions.. I've had some first hand experience with a few things.. This is all extremely personal, and I'm not at the stage where I generally share it with others..
So what is your struggle? You are unsure of whether God exists? Or whether he is listening to you and acknowledging that you are there??

Posted By BirdsallSa on 03 Dec 2010 12:18 PM
Caprice-"In my experience, God can be felt, but only when you quiet the mind."
But how do you know if it's God and not you?
The Buddhism thing is interesting, I'm going to research it some.

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Well, that's an arbitrary duality we create when we play with language (and as Eric S. Raymond said, we are smart apes who like to play with ideas.)

Buddhists/New Agers square the circle by synthesizing these into concepts such as God Consciousness, i.e. a state of mind in which you have the "God" experience.

I think it's ALL a state of mind, and hence a basic matrix of brain biochemistry.  Why do I feel great after I work out and crappy after sitting on my ass for a few days? Oxytocin, endorphins, whatever...Artificially induced mystical experiences such as those on LSD are described by psychologists as "florid transient psychosis." You can flip that switch where your separateness from the universe is temporarily suppressed by whatever techniques or tools (drugs are not recommended, for obvious reasons.)

As I often joke, the difference between me being an angel and the Devil is a marginal 2 hours of sleep per night.

Posted By bella on 08 Dec 2010 10:59 PM
I believe there are
things in the universe that we can't explain, a mystery. If there isn't anything other than this human experience, what is it all for ?

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Before I started studying astrology and discovered that it was "for real", I was a hardcore atheist.

Then I thought the fact that it was "for real" was proof of God.

Now I'm an agnostic because I'm really unclear on what "God" is. I suspect astrology is basically a special case of fractal cosmology and what we know as the physical universe follows universal law -- from the highest to the lowest scale.  So is God basically this fractal pattern/process which is the basis of everything? Dunno.  That's where I am at the moment.

Square the circle????? Which circle would this be? And what exactly is the arbitrary reality. Please detail.

Arbitrary duality. O.K. You judge it as arbitrary. It doesn't at all seem arbitrary to me.

A quote from a favorite band: "Language is the liquid, that we're all dissolved in. Great for solving problems, after it creates a problem."
 

That's sorta how I look at it.  The critical discovery is your place in this "cosmic scheme": to be banal "doing what you were intended to". Finding your ideal niche.

I'm not sure I agree that this is the critical discovery.

But in any event, thanks for chatting.