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Are you Religious?
Last Post 21 Dec 2011 01:44 PM by . 175 Replies.
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alysaria 
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| 06 Aug 2009 01:01 PM |
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Posted By cryptonia on 05 Aug 2009 03:40 PM
That's the NJ point of view, lol 
alysaria, was the second half of that last post of mine helpful at all to you? I thought you or your family (or whoever it was who believed that stuff) might've found it useful. Plus, if I made a rally shitty argument for that belief being biblical, I'd really like to know it. Religious and philosophical beliefs reach too far into the rest of your worldview to adopt wrong ones and allow them to stand.
Yes it was, very much so. ^_^ -shrug- I'm happy living my life without a religious label. One way or the other, what I believe is always going to be between me and whoever or whatever my faith is in. And if I didn't believe in anything, well that's my business too. I don't have to try to convince anyone else that it's the only way and they have to believe exactly what I do. And I don't have to listen to anyone if they try to force their beliefs and judgements on me. What's the point of living your own life if you have to adapt it to satisfy someone else? |
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thoke
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| 07 Aug 2009 04:46 AM |
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It's not about satisfying someone else. It's about being in touch with the facts, whatever they me be. If there is a God, then I am out of touch with reality, which is potentially dangerous (e.g. I could go to hell, if that exists).
If there isn't a God, then those who believe in Him are mistaken. Everybody is mistaken about something, and that's probably okay most of the time. But as a rule of thumb, I think it's best to track the truth where possible, so that your behaviour is appropriate given the nature of reality (whatever that nature may turn out to be).
That doesn't mean you should let yourself be bullied by rude atheists, but it does mean it's wise to be willing to discuss what you believe and why you believe it. I don't mean here and now, but in general. |
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alysaria
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| 07 Aug 2009 07:23 AM |
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>.> Well...yea, standing on a streetcorner yelling at people about hellfire and damnation isn't going to earn you any favors... And being aggressive on the expectation and perhaps hope of starting a fight so you can point at the opposing side and say how "irrational and defensive" they are isn't really the way to go about it either. Still, why shouldn't it be ok to have discourse in general without people staring at you like you've grown a pair of antlers? Those of us who live in free countries are so lucky to have the liberty to state an opinion without fear of retribution. -.-;;; This is my idealism talking, but I honestly believe that a true understanding and acceptance of people isn't about gritting your teeth and bearing them to avoid legal action against you for discrimination... it's about acknowledging that others don't look, think, and act like you do, and it's no big deal. I'm not saying it's ok to just ignore *really* negative, antisocial behavior - there are things that are just unacceptable...but what's wrong with sharing your beliefs if you really feel inclined? It's not like the listener has to be compelled to go along with it. |
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thoke
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| 07 Aug 2009 12:09 PM |
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I don't think we disagree... I'm saying it's good to share your beliefs with people.  |
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alysaria
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| 07 Aug 2009 12:36 PM |
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I totally misread the last sentence of your last post. ROFL |
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BenSimon
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| 07 Aug 2009 04:17 PM |
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sbalbom, Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S Lewis?  I'd recommend that one, at least that book descripes well how i see christianity *nods* |
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cryptonia
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| 07 Aug 2009 07:51 PM |
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es it was, very much so. ^_^
-shrug- I'm happy living my life without a religious label. One way or the other, what I believe is always going to be between me and whoever or whatever my faith is in. Good, heh. I have a serious problem where for some reason, I can never tell if people don't answer stuff I say when religion comes up because it's off-topic or unhelpful or just stupid, or if they don't answer because it's so complete and/or unexpected that there's nothing more to be said, or at least they can't think of any immediate objections (it usually being a new point of view for them). I tend to wonder if I just made any sense unless someone gives an "oh.... huh, ok then" or something. also, *high fives*. You and thoke just hit on a nice point of something that has always bothered me surrounding any religious talks. Most of the time, when people say "faith is a personal thing," they use it almost like a weapon... or maybe a shield--to essentially say "I'm not listening, don't want to hear it, and [more subtly] you're a bad person for trying to spread it." That always bugged the hell out of me, because it's half true--that is, in the way you used it, it is a very personal thing and ultimately how you relate to other people with respect to it isn't all that important. Judging a person who tries to evangelize, though, is blatantly unfair, since a good chunk of them (er... at least some of them) legitimately think that it's helpful to people... for the same reasons thoke said. Of course, if someone is in that "don't talk to me, I don't want to hear it" mindset, I'd argue that it's best to leave them alone and not mention it anymore, on pretty much every level that we're in touch with. I once got stopped by a streetside evangelist in the city where I go to college who made me feel uncomfortable, and want nothing more than to get away from him. I can only imagine how other people feel. Sadly I was in a rush and couldn't stop to chat, but I kind of hope that eventually I get the chance to let unload on one while people are watching, hehe. Arguing with one of those guys'd probably be quite an effective way to get my points across . |
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sbalbom
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| 12 Aug 2009 01:09 AM |
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Posted By BenSimon on 07 Aug 2009 03:17 PM
sbalbom, Have you read "Mere Christianity" by C.S Lewis? I'd recommend that one, at least that book descripes well how i see christianity *nods*
Hey Bensimon, No I haven't. I haven't read any of his books. What is his thesis? |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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sbalbom
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| 12 Aug 2009 01:22 AM |
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Posted By thoke on 05 Aug 2009 03:19 AM
A good, all-powerful god wouldn't cause an Asian Tsunami, so God is either cruel, weak or non-existent.
As always the Greeks said it first and best: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” -Epicurus 341 BCE – 270 BCE One can enjoy the ancient arguments that were better argued 2300 years ago. The Man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus Debate Showing both sides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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sbalbom
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| 12 Aug 2009 01:28 AM |
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Absolutely.
Have you been to butterfliesandwheels.com? The 'Notes and Comments' section is a brilliant daily blog about secularism and related issues. The woman who writes it is very pasisonate, but also extremely sensible. Interesting: I'll check it out: Butterflies and Wheels has been established in order to oppose a number of related phenomena. These include: 1. Pseudoscience that is ideologically and politically motivated. 2. Epistemic relativism in the humanities (for example, the idea that statements are only true or false relative to particular cultures, discourses or language-games). 3. Those disciplines or schools of thought whose truth claims are prompted by the political, ideological and moral commitments of their adherents, and the general tendency to judge the veracity of claims about the world in terms of such commitments. |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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BenSimon
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| 12 Aug 2009 08:06 AM |
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C.S. Lewis is also the author of the Narnia books He doens't have a Thesis as such, but the book i mentioned "mere christianity", elaborate on how he think christianity is, and a bit about his journey from trying to disprove christianity and instead of that, ending up as one. I think you would find the book very interesting if you are interested in christianity in general |
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rachelbird
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| 12 Aug 2009 12:31 PM |
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Posted By cryptonia on 31 Jul 2009 12:22 PM
alysaria: 100% agree. I actually heard quite an impressive biblically-centered argument in a sermon (I don't go to church, but listen to good ones online) that what we call hell is actually intended to be non-existence. Instead of an ongoing, persistent torture, eternal in duration, it's an annihilation or unmaking of the person, eternal in consequence.
Cryptonia, what do you make of Mark 9:47-49? It doesn't seem to be a parable in this case. |
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sbalbom
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| 12 Aug 2009 01:05 PM |
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Posted By BenSimon on 12 Aug 2009 07:06 AM
C.S. Lewis is also the author of the Narnia books
He doens't have a Thesis as such, but the book i mentioned "mere christianity", elaborate on how he think christianity is, and a bit about his journey from trying to disprove christianity and instead of that, ending up as one.
I think you would find the book very interesting if you are interested in christianity in general
We'll I've read St. Augustine's Confessions and his City of God vs Pagans http://www.ccel.org/a/augustine/confessions/confessions.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_God_(book) Where C.S. Lewis most likely borrows a lot of his Neo-Platonic logic. St. Augustine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_(St._Augustine) Ben, what is the feeling or logic that lead you to recommend the book? I'm not saying that he is wrong or its a bad book. I do find christian mythology very will argued. They bring out wonderful points on the nature and predicament of man. When you have 1400 years of the brightest mind debating from Descartes to Augustine, to Aquinas, you get fun stuff. I at university I took a course on early christian philosophy 50-600 AD. Among many others... |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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cryptonia
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| 12 Aug 2009 03:17 PM |
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Cryptonia, what do you make of Mark 9:47-49? It doesn't seem to be a parable in this case Ah, sorry. I said parable, but I also meant symbolic language. I make several things of it. For one, it's in a very-obviously symbolic passage. I doubt if Jesus seriously meant you were literally supposed to cut you penis off if you ever masturbate, or chop your hands off if you ever steal. I don't actually know of any christians in the history of the church who have interpreted it this way, which already puts the passage into symbolic terms. Secondly: verses 44 and 46 are omitted from most of the old documents we have. The ESV (fairly new, mostly-literal translation that came out a few years back. It's like a cross between NIV, which is heavily interpreted, and NAS, which is almost purely literal) doesn't even include it, because the translators deemed it unlikely that those verses were in the original texts. That doesn't really "seal" the passage off, because the phrase is still in verse 48, but it does mean that the "unquenchable fire" and "worm that doesn't die" is only stated once, rather than 3 times--which does seem to shift the focus a bit. Most importantly, though, "their worm" is a specific type of worm that eat a decaying body after the person has died. See http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=9&v=1&t=ESV#conc/48 if you want to check up on that (great site for those of us who don't know Greek or Hebrew, giving word by word translations and meanings. Click on the Strong's number to get lexicon information for the word used). So saying that "their worm does not die" is like saying "the death will never end." Likewise, "the fire is not quenched"--as you could see on the same site--means that "the fire does not go out." The "constant torture" version of hell makes sense if you think of "quenched" as "an insatiable appetite"--like the fire will keep eating and eating forever. It doesn't mean that, though, as you can see from the other places it's translated on that site (also click on the Strong's number, and scroll down a lot). Both of these things, then, have to do with the end of something that happens after someone has died. The worm will never die because the death of the person is permanent. The fire will never be extinguished because the death is permanent. Both point towards a death that is eternal in consequence (that is, can never be undone), but not torturous in nature. Lastly, I would ask: what if it was, truly, meant to be an actual description of a hellish experience? I would like to reverse the question, and ask: how much pain is a person in when worms prey on their dead body? |
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BenSimon
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| 12 Aug 2009 03:57 PM |
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Ben, what is the feeling or logic that lead you to recommend the book? I'm not saying that he is wrong or its a bad book. I do find christian mythology very will argued. They bring out wonderful points on the nature and predicament of man. When you have 1400 years of the brightest mind debating from Descartes to Augustine, to Aquinas, you get fun stuff.
Good question Well, he's a brilliant author, and I love this particular book because C.S. Lewis manages in layman terms to explain something as sophisticated as a Deity in a great and simple manner. He's a friendly person, and uses great examples from everyday life to get his points through. Also, alot of the things i'd like to tell about the book, can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity |
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sbalbom
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| 16 Aug 2009 11:10 PM |
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Ok checked it out. |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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joley
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| 18 Aug 2009 02:41 PM |
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What about The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Any Pastafarians out there??? |
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alysaria
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| 18 Aug 2009 02:54 PM |
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What about The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Any Pastafarians out there??? I do like the commandments of FSM. ^_^ But I still don't label myself. |
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sbalbom
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| 19 Aug 2009 10:38 PM |
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Posted By joley78 on 18 Aug 2009 01:41 PM
What about The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Any Pastafarians out there???
I'm to non-conformist for FSM, BUT I respect their beliefs. I suppose when the SJs become aethiest then I'll do what they are not doing.  Best pick: http://www.seanbonner.com/blog/archives/piratesarecool.jpg |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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AudioPenguin
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| 04 Sep 2009 08:54 PM |
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My family is very casual about religion. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who has gone to church in the past eight years, but I only went because my ex-girlfriend was Catholic. 
Ever since I could remember, I would lie in bed and silently think to myself, "What if there isn't a God. What if, when I die, there's just emptiness. I would just cease to exist..." Now, being five years old and thinking that, I would cry myself to sleep. It was horrifying to imagine to just not being. To no longer have any form of conciousness was my greatest fear. However, I kept my belief in God up until two years ago. The only reason I believed it that long was more out of fear than faith.
I now live comfortably as an atheist and have accepted the possibility that I will simply disappear from existence. I do hold some hope that I will be able to continue an afterlife with my thoughts, but if not, I'll be fine (well, I'll just be nothing I guess...). I could use the peace and quiet anyway. |
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