Posted By ENFPGuy on 12 Jul 2009 03:07 PM
I'm not, and I don't like organized Religion. How about others?

Tnx

I'm not religious, but I do consider myself very, very spiritual.  

I've had bad experiences with two different "organized religions" (or cults as some call them).

And I'm not a big fan of those that say they are "Christian" and then act like ass holes.  Our neighbors are Mormons and they are completely rude, lie and say shit about me that isn't true.  When I've asked for examples of what they are accusing me of, they won't give them to me.  

I've had other Mormon friends and they certainly didn't act like the above.

I was on a message board with many professed "Christians".  I swear the majority of the Christians were the meanest and rudest people I've ever come across.

I did just start reading "Daily Word".  I really like it.  On Facebook, I check "what God wants me to know" every day, along with my horoscope.  LOL!!!

At this point in my life, I want to just do what I want to do as far as my spirituality.   

Many teachings of monotheistic cults have positive values. That can’t be disputed.

I just read a few books in the New Testament for the hell of it two weeks ago and I can't believe how inferior it is to writings of Greek philosophy that is hundreds of years older. Give me Plato or Aristotle any day over the teachings of Jesus, Zarathusra, Baa'l, Moses or any of the hundreds of profits. Any of the good Christian philosophers just pirate from Aristotle anyway.

The bible is provincial, primitive and backwater. It’s like a kindergartner wrote it.

What shocks me is how ANYONE who has been exposed to the ancient thinkers can still follow these cults. Forget even the modern ones.

I guess I can’t believe that anyone today, in modern society could believe that the bible is divinely inspired.  It’s not even that good, brilliant or even well written.   It’s kind of silly, contradictory.  It had to be it, was written for primitive time and when the Roman Empire ruled Isreal

There are some sweet parts, its not all bad.  There are a lot of romantic pieces but I’ve read much better.

I'll admit my own opinion is similar. My own reaction to some of these books was 'Why are you wasting my time with all of these stories and so little worldly or spiritual knowledge?'

Perhaps one should assume that they are directed at the common man and not at Ns.

As for organized religions in general. I don't have an objection to the idea of organized religion. I think it can be used to create positive results. I think that some of them have positively affected the world (at least initially). And really, any reason that makes people more decent is good.

I'll admit my own opinion is similar. My own reaction to some of these books was 'Why are you wasting my time with all of these stories and so little worldly or spiritual knowledge?'

Perhaps one should assume that they are directed at the common man and not at Ns.

As for organized religions in general. I don't have an objection to the idea of organized religion. I think it can be used to create positive results. I think that some of them have positively affected the world (at least initially). And really, any reason that makes people more decent is good.

I don't think the dark ages were dark because of Christianity or the concepts it contains. It was dark because of the nature of the people who gained power (in the church), and their choices. I don't think they understood Christian teachings.

Religion typically provides some positive ideals, and some motivation to follow them. That doesn't mean that people will always follow those teachings. It is people and their own natures, the characteristics and beliefs of societies, that cause negative or positive results. Religions are just ideas... similar to any other philosophy.

I used to be Muslim and I know that side of history better. For all the wars and what not that may have happened, Islam had a considerable positive effect when it first came about. It brought law and decency. Ideals that made people better people for the most part. It brought a belief in the value of knowledge and education. It brought a social system and attitude, that I've read, wiped out poverty in that area for a while (in the sense that there were supposedly almost no people to be found to whom the rules defining people who can be given charity, properly applied).
Even when the religion was taken over by the power hungry who created their monarchies... it managed to have a positive effect for quite a while longer.

Of course, now there are cases like the Taliban. But really, those people were trained often as children, in US funded institutions, during the cold war, to be weapons. They were given beliefs that would make them better weapons. You can't blame the ideas in Islam for that. I'm pretty sure there's no way you could twist Islamic law to make it seem like a suicide attack was anything but a disaster for your soul (under Muslim beliefs).


This is all like my objection to democracy. Democracy is just the idea that people be considered equal in the eyes of the law, have equal rights, have equal opportunity to improve their lives, and have equal say in government. Governments based on this idea have any number of implementations. And it is ultimately the details that matter. The details that make or break a system.
You had communism in the USSR, and you had it in China. The results were different, because the overall societies and the choices made were different, even if they supposedly followed similar ideals.

I think that's all religions amount to.. ideas, that people can choose to believe in. And like religions, we have people like our former President George Bush, who don't necessarily understand the ideals they fight for, but still think they know better and should be enforcing their beliefs on other people by force... as in Iraq

And no, I'm not against fighting either. For every problem, and every objective, there are many possible solutions, and you should try to pick one that works well. There are times when war is the answer. With Iraq, I think that was a very bad choice and very badly handled... thus my earlier point about the details of the implementation of an idea.

If religion stands for unity, yes I am religious. Like how chair does not know a carpenter, I don't know who is my source, but I believe in that 'Source.' Thankful for it and that source is in me and in every being here. (Not a believer of the source is very pure, & I sinned, or in QC[Quality control] check I was found defective, hence I was born here).

Harmony of science and religion is the essence of living. (if I have to say silent in a situation to preserve Unity, I am happy to stay silent. If I were a witness to injustice or gross negligence of Human rights am grateful to voice my opinion against it.)

I stand by a famous quote, "If religion is reason for disunity, irreligion is preferred." This I experienced after living in the City and witnessing 2 fanatical groups(calling themselves killed each other) during a day which is lately known for Love and sharing the moment with your loved one. Few years after when I came across this quote, it definitely agreed with my feelings, emotions.

By organized religion, if there is a middle man between us & Divine(God, The Father, Allah, Bodhisatva, etc) that job is made redundant since more than a century. (I agree with few comments in here). Everyone living human being is equal and there is a group of prophets(manifestations) and then The Source(Divine, etc) where we all came from.

Anyone can say anything, but as an ENFP I independently investigate and find it true for myself (through prayers, meditation and introspection.)

Best wishes & Happy New Year to all.

I don't think the dark ages were dark because of Christianity or the concepts it contains. It was dark because of the nature of the people who gained power (in the church), and their choices. I don't think they understood Christian teachings.

Zych I hate to argue with you but they would argue it is we that don't understand. The entire epoc, from art, to literature, to education and government was all based on Christianity, faith and salvation. The entire focus was God and how to get to heaven. From the time Christianity converted the Roman Empire to the enlightenment there was virtually no technological progress. It wasn't until the collapse of Constantinople that the west re-discovered philosophy and rational thought from their refugees. That combined with the centuries of religious slaughter the west started its path twords the enlightenment. Literally nearly a thousand years wasted in death, disease, famine and ignorance under the banner of faith (non reason).

When you talk about the positives that Islam and Christianity bring it was dependent on the brand. Most of western Christianity was mild and virtually neo-Platonism. They todays Islam and Christianity is particularly benign, but will always will contain the possibility of mutating in to such things as the Talaban. What they supplanted were hundreds of even more primitive cults, tribes and customs that certainly violated what we conciser "natural rights". But that that also depends if you are a minority. Jews lived in Babylon since about 80AD since the sack of the 2nd temple. They were treated well under pagan Rome, until a religious fundamentalist minority called Zelots decided to seek independence. The Jews had more or less freedom of thought, economy and religion. They existed more or less un molested under Persian rule for near two millennia, until... the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and the Ayatollah. If you ever go to LA you'll see more Persian Jews then European Jews and ask them how they had to flee.

Ideals that made people better people for the most part. It brought a belief in the value of knowledge and education. It brought a social system and attitude, that I've read, wiped out poverty in that area for a while (in the sense that there were supposedly almost no people to be found to whom the rules defining people who can be given charity, properly applied).
Even when the religion was taken over by the power hungry who created their monarchies... it managed to have a positive effect for quite a while longer.

This is all false, just like the Taliban, Religion sequesters thought, reason, and science. Science was only promoted for a short time in Europe by monks... because they had the leisure time being fed from their parishioners. When science started unraveling mysteries that were considered God's providence all major religions had sought to crush it. Examples of this is, Darwin, Galileo Galilei and even Isasac Newton who's seminal work on gravitation had to be published after his death. For a thousand years the greatest minds had to go into the church and try to square rational thought with faith. How much grander would our world be if such thinkers such as Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, Calvin, Luther and countless others were not distracted by a populist sect of Judaism.

I encourage you to read two books:

http://www.amazon.com/God-Not-Great-Religion-Everything/dp/0446579807

and

http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004

Both outline a this beautiful argument

I also used to be a man of faith. Until I started deeply educating myself and reading a lot of history and economics. I now realize how foolish I was.

@sbalbom: The acquisition of knowledge is practically a command in Islam, expected of everyone (not that people couldn't find some religious sounding excuse against it at times when it counters their beliefs).

Islamic Golden Age at Wikipedia

Chemistry, or Alchemy.. Al-chemia.. is an arabic term. Algebra is arabic. Those people were researching stuff, and its in part because of the Muslims that the Greek knowledge survived and came back to the west for the renaissance, since things were not good over in Europe.  Look up some of those Muslim scientists... sure their accomplishments were primitive by today's standards, but in context, they aren't that impressive. I know one of those guys calculated the circumference of the earth with decent accuracy, and I'm not sure most decently educated people today can do that(ignoring people taught in the relevant sciences, and with brains enough to apply the knowledge)

As for the devil... if that question is directed at me... No. Not in some super-evil. I suppose its possible there are other lifeforms which might often have attitudes that correspond to our views of evil.

Our insatiable 'self' or ego without spiritual harmony (or energetic grounding) is the devil. 

@sbalbom: What about you?

Oh I was not suggesting that only Islam does anything positive. Just pointing out that these are just philosophies and that they can have positive results. Mohammad was a philosopher and he had ideas about a lot of things. Obviously not all of them would be right, but that doesn't necessarily make the system, implemented as intended, a bad system. Obviously, I think everything can be improved. I look at Islam from the perspective of a spiritualist, and I see interesting ideas and interesting solutions to problems.

I'll try to look at your videos after I'm through with some work I'm doing.

Oh I was not suggesting that only Islam does anything positive. Just pointing out that these are just philosophies and that they can have positive results. Mohammad was a philosopher and he had ideas about a lot of things. Obviously not all of them would be right, but that doesn't necessarily make the system, implemented as intended, a bad system. Obviously, I think everything can be improved. I look at Islam from the perspective of a spiritualist, and I see interesting ideas and interesting solutions to problems.

that that is an important part of what they are, and part of the context that gives them meaning -

I also suspect that there is a spark of divine inspiration in people like Mohammad, more so than most people. But then I'm a spiritualist. I believe he was a wise man.

"...now that a Book confirming their own has come to them from God, they deny it...they reply: 'We believe in what was revealed to us.' But they deny what has since been revealed, although it is truth...Say: 'Whoever is an enemy of Gabriel' (who has by God's grace revealed to you [Muhammad] the Koran as a guide...confirming previous scriptures)..will surely find that God is the enemy of the unbelievers.'...And now that an apostle has come to them from God confirming their own Scriptures, some of those to whom the Scriptures were given cast off the Book of God behind their backs...The unbelievers among the People of the Book, and the pagans, resent that any blessings should have been sent down to you from your Lord. " (Surah 2:88-, 98-, 103-)

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Men are tempted [in this life] by the lure of women...far better is the return of God. Say: 'Shall I tell you of better things than these, with which the righteous shall be rewarded by their Lord? Theirs shall be gardens watered by running streams, where they shall dwell for ever: wives of perfect chastity..." (Surah 3:14, 15)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"To those that declare: 'God has commanded us to believe no apostle unless he brings down fire to consume an offering,' say: 'Other apostles before me [Muhammad] have come to you with veritable signs and worked the miracle you asked for...If they reject you [Muhammad], other apostles have been rejected before you..." (Surah 3:183-)

"If you wish to replace a wife with another, do not take from her the dowry you have given her..." (Surah 4:20)

"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially." (Surah 4:126-)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:114-)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

"You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you make money, if they wish to preserve their chastity." (Surah 24:33-)

"As for the faithful who do good works and believe what is revealed to Muhammad...He will forgive them their sins..." (Surah 47:1)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

From my perspective, without a soul, humans are just organic machines. First, I'm sure that's not true, but if it were, I would think that humanity was valueless trash, and not care in the least about their continued lives or what they might prefer.

Posted By sbalbom on 11 Jan 2010 11:47 AM
http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian


10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

While I'm not about to get in the middle of this thread for.... well, for a ton of reasons:  I really did appreciate these.  Especially #9 (I would've placed it much higher)