Posted By CyclicThreads on 30 Oct 2009 12:04 AM

 

My question is to do with masculinity and being an ENFP. I am not gay but feel I should be to explain my difference to society and norms and people in general. I wondered if this is a common theme with other ENFPs at all?

 

I'm not really sure what being gay actually has to do with the way people act - I think this is just the way you are  Some enfp guys come out sauve and mature - others of us... uh... don't. Take me for example - I'm usually fairly laid-back, casual, and a lot quieter than might be usual for enfps. At the same time I have a (male) friend who's flirty, loves hugs, loads every sentence with exaggerated exclamations, and in general acts in an exuberant, youthful, "girlish" manner (might be an esfp?). Although you could describe him as "girlish," I wouldn't describe him as effeminate, and he's certainly not gay - in fact the girl he's dating is my oldest friend. To be honest, I quite admire how bold and unhesitating he is - he's much more forward than I am. Obviously, guys like him (and maybe you?) are a rarity, but no less masculine than the next man

I am embarrassed to say I am 31. I am not in a latent stage or in the closet which I hope is not the conclusion you are reaching from my posts. I am attracted to women and have had gf's etc... I think for me it is what the label symbolises and represents. I think the reason I get anxious about it is that I don't feel my sexuality has been in the closet as I know am heterosexual but what has been in the closet is me and my personality as a whole. I have spent the last 14 or so years looking after a close relative and at a high intensity in the last 5 yrs. When everyone was out individuating at university I was at home caring and never really had time to find myself personality wise (not meant to sound like a sob story so sorry if it appears like that). I also thought in my negative self-evaluation that I was not worthy to be around other people and to belong regardless of being an apparent extravert - the self perpetuation and self-fulfillinf prophecy of negative thought.

I always sadly believed I had to please other people especially based upon peers and parents and thus when I started leaving courses and changing my mind all the time my confidence became severly fragmented. It's only in the last few months now my relative is well that I am starting to really think about myself and it is scary. I have never been sure who I am underneath as I think I am very good at faking things to please others and changing my mind! Having a sense of truth is vital to me to move forward hence the whole life coaching and discovering I'm an ENFP. I think the thing I have denied all this time is a lot of my personality going from a self concept of INTJ to ENFP is like a huge upheaval but one I can understand based upon the need to conform to some acceptable norm of the strong NT and J functions and that fact I though I was introverted due to depression and lack of stimulation for so long - self perpertuation if you will. Being gay is the label attached to being different - when there is deviation from the norm this is what men call each other in a derogatory way be they in the schoolyard or as supposedly mature adults. That difference is the key element for me. Accepting I am not some nerdy theoretical stereotype, not some jockesque go-getter womaniser and actually in fact somebody who has feelings, who cares, who appreciates beauty, who likes romance and adores the concept of love and gives a toss about his fellow human and animals, cute ones in particular. Accepting all those things is what I mean and feeling as though I am worthy and OK and adequate as an individual in the eyes of society. I have pretended to be something other than an ENFP for so long I seem to not know the real me - prolonged depression and anxiety can screw you over - it is deadening. Being told in fact I am an ENFP who has had all these supposed disorders but is an ENFP nonetheless is like a huge reality check and gives me life. The truly sad thing about all of this is my self evaluation and the social norm evaluation of something as different being bad with all the synonyms it conjures up that we all regularly use without a second thought.

Sorry to rant and again not looking for rescuing in case ppl view this as such but hope you know where I am coming from.

I think I am just angry about everything and it is easier for me to feel angry at myself than to take it out on somebody or some entity that does not exist.

Ah well - shrugs - self empowerment through knowledge.

CT--

Males are gay if and only if they whip it out and take a trip down the Hershey Highway with another male. It is a behavior, not something that is on the inside, or part of some imaginary "real me."

So, if you're not boning dudes in the ass, you're not gay. End of story.

There are some out there who talk about gay genes and so forth. This is a complete pseudo-science motivated by ideologues. We might as well postulate genes for celibacy, or genes for fucking little boys. Since people who are celibate or those who are purely pederasts don't reproduce, there cannot be a gene for these behaviors. The same follows with homosexuality. The idea that someone can be secretly gay is one of the dogmas of our age-- if anything, Darwin shows that homosexuals are just repressed heterosexuals.

Therefore, homosexuality in the animal kingdom is a matter of conditioning and environment. Nuture defeats nature in these cases. Getting off on pain and self-humiliation probably should be considered a mental disorder (or, in religious terminology, a sin) though, if it is any consolation, there is far weirder stuff out there.

Anyway, if you like things like opera and poetry, and prefer to dress well, don't beat yourself up over it.

Posted By CyclicThreads on 30 Oct 2009 03:51 AM

...what has been in the closet is me and my personality as a whole. I have spent the last 14 or so years looking after a close relative and at a high intensity in the last 5 yrs. When everyone was out individuating at university I was at home caring and never really had time to find myself personality wise (not meant to sound like a sob story so sorry if it appears like that). I also thought in my negative self-evaluation that I was not worthy to be around other people and to belong regardless of being an apparent extravert - the self perpetuation and self-fulfillinf prophecy of negative thought.

Whoa - I can see how that would hold you back personality-wise Maybe you could try to work out some way you can get away from that situation. I'm not saying abandon your relative, but try to find some way you can get some time for yourself in there... I wish I could suggest more, but there's really no way I can have a better understanding of your life than you do yourself.

Being gay is the label attached to being different - when there is deviation from the norm this is what men call each other in a derogatory way be they in the schoolyard or as supposedly mature adults. That difference is the key element for me. Accepting I am not some nerdy theoretical stereotype, not some jockesque go-getter womaniser and actually in fact somebody who has feelings, who cares, who appreciates beauty, who likes romance and adores the concept of love and gives a toss about his fellow human and animals, cute ones in particular.

JD answered this well, albiet in a rather... blunt way . Sensitive doesn't mean gay - and if someone labels you as such that's immaturity on their part rather than anything meaningful

OP has some serious things to work out, he doesn't sound gay to me, but looking for a community, being physically and emotionally attracted to men is a tell-tale sign of being gay

To JHBowden: I take particular exception to a lot of the assertions that you've made, the way you've described it there are no such things as homosexual virgins, or homosexuals who don't like anal sex which I categorically disagree with.

Not to mention the fact that if you look at genes in a COMMUNAL sense instead of an individual sense, genes such as homosexuality and other genes not directly passed on by individuals are carried by the communities at large, usually benifiting the group in other ways. One such suggestion in this vein is that related females of homosexual males tend to be more fertile then their peers.

Your other part, getting off on pain or self-humiliation should only be diagnosed as a mental disorder if we classify anything and everything that a puritanical society wouldn't consider as directly beneficial to a family unit as a mental disorder.

The intense feeling of pain followed by climax doesn't sound like something that needs to be diagnosed as long as it doesn't interfere with whatever it is that particular person wants going on in his/her life.

Self-humiliation can be a way to give up power to another sexual partner, I know there are plenty of women (and men) who like rough dominating sex, the release of letting someone else be in control of sexual desires isn't weird its preference.

Personally, I always connect with girls when talking about relationships and stuff, and I can have girly conversations, sometimes i get joked by "You're such a girl!" with laughter, but honestly, the serious comments they get is that I am more MAN than MAN for some reason.

i used to be on the boxing team in college, played baseball in high school, and i love sports. my friends in junior high were in gangs and they would back me up if i ever got into trouble. im 32 now, so i don't care about all that stuff for the most part. i think being an ENFP, if you are into sports, its cool because everything slows down, and you don't panic in game winning situations as you mature. I love high intensity softball games, and in those, i excel because im calm and take charge when everyone is panicking. in my boxing matches, everything slows down too, and i love the intensity of it. I think being able to take charge in emergency type situations also leads to female and male friends coming to me when they are in trouble and in a tough situation.

but yeah, that about sums it up for me.

First of all it is important for us to understand what being flamboyant is. I think as a society we have equated being flamboyant to being homosexual, for the most part. Here is websters definition of being flamboyant. Flamboyant: marked by or given to strikingly elaborate or colorful display or behavior.  To me that does sound at all like someone who is homosexual. If you think of a male peacock they are very colorful and eye catching. Among other species of animals the male is considered to be more physically appealing than the female. Also their behavior is strikingly elaborate. I think that many very masculine men can be considered to be flamboyant and they are viewed as being very attractive to women and the envy of men. Most of these men are very proficient at what they do: an extremely masculine salesman can be considered to be flamboyant, a masculine actor can be considered to be flamboyant, a successful businessman can be considered to be flamboyant. Most of these flamboyant men are in the public eye, kind of like celebrities. I think most celebrities could be considered as flamboyant but it would wrong to assume that they are homosexual because of the way they behave. I guess my point is, I do not think that we as enfp's should be worried about people thinking we are homosexual because of our outgoing flamboyant nature. I have never been misjudged when I am being extraverted and flamboyant. In fact, women are attracted to me and men are envious of me when I behave this way. The way all this relates to you CyclicThreads is the only time I am read incorrectly, misjudged or thought to be very strange or off is when I am extremely high on my introverted feeling function.  My advice to you cyclicthreads is stop worrying about who people think you are and be the person you want to be. Being high on introverted feeling is very dangerous to ENFP, it causes us to become mixed up in our own feelings which can be illogical at times and brings about depression because we as individuals have a deep desire to constantly meet new people and for people to like us. Do not worry about considered gay by being extroverted and outgoing, worry about being misunderstood when you are high on introverted feeling. I am not sure if that helps and it may be a different answer than you were looking for based on your post. This is just my own opinion on the subject of masculinity in ENFP's.