Hi!  I'm brand new to the forum and excited to make my first post -

First - the background information

So there's this girl.  I met her through friends about a year and half ago, and I was immediately attracted to her.  The combination of her extreme quirkiness and self-confidence intrigues me to no end.  She's gorgeous but she's one of the few very attractive girls I know who dont make me feel intimidated. 

Recently, we've been spending quite a bit of time together.  She's flirtatious (is this an INTJ thing?) with me and I see interest developing.  The other day, I had her take the MBTI and guessed her personality type before she revealed it to me.  It was her idea to look up compatibility sites, and we continued to flirt when she saw we made a match - "Oh, I didn't realize how much you enjoyed compliments.  Did I mention how sexy you look right now?", "Oh thanks for noticing!  I'd love to return the favor by helping you express your repressed feelings and sexual frustration anytime."

We just finished finals this week and I had high hopes for our night of celebrations - last night.  She talked all week about how she was decidedly getting drunk with our group of friends and about how much fun we were going to have.  I decided I wanted to make my feelings for her more obvious for this night of debauchery.  Instead, I watched her makeout with her female roommates.  Apparently she decided to get rid of her sexual frustration in a way that involved no emotional risk.

Another point to make about the night - I noticed a lot less affection from her in general - almost as if she was avoiding me!  I thought I may have been acting differently - jealous, disappointed, or just not myself - and she was responding accordingly.  Or that she saw that I was interested and backed off because she doesnt want to take any risks with me.

1.  Are INTJ females generally flirtatious?  Is it possible I'm just reading too much into her flirtation and that she only sees me as a friend?

2.  With an INTJ female, do I need to take more initiative?  Any advice, experience, stories in this area would be welcome!  Taking initiative in relationships is a weakness of mine.

3. How can I better keep an INTJ female's attention or continue an initial spark/attraction?  Or will the right INTJ automatically love me for my personality, and maybe this one just isn't going to work?

4. Less related to the topic but I'm going through a phase of self-doubt and a lack of confidence in myself.  Any feedback to help me out here would be much appreciated

 We're hanging out with a group of 5 friends (I think I'll be the only guy) in about a week at the wild animal park.  Very excited to see your responses!

Advice: No one knows anything. So just wing it!

BTW, what is your personality type?

Hi Francisco and welcome, thrilled to have you on the forum

I'm sorry to hear about the experience you had with a possible INTJ (or was it confirmed?) Maybe she got nervous and acted stupid to see how you would react? And maybe she's kicking herself right now, for thinking that she fu**ed up with you... Who knows unless you ask? You don't mention your age but I'm assuming you are quite young. So to answer your questions:

1. Noooo we are generally not flirtatious! Really not. We are straight forward when it comes to the opposite sex, we can be almost blunt and we don't play games. That said, with a bit of experience and growing older, you learn to play the flirting game for the hell of it, but it's not our forte. If she just saw you as a friend you would've known. She would have told you or made it obvious in another way that she wasn't interested. If you perceive an INTJ as flirty and accommodating, I think you have a very good shot with her...

2. Y E S!!! We suck at taking initiative, especially if we really feel something. I'm over 30 years old and I've never initiated a first kiss with a guy, since I think it's a man's job to take initiative. After he has initiated, it's fair game to initiate kissing and what not.. Be firm and forward, if she doesn't like you that way, you'll know. If she likes you, she'll love you for seeing right through the bs 'wall' she puts up to hold others at arms length. We push people away almost to test them to see if their feelings are real. If they are and guys come back to us, we'll know that and we feel more secure. Remember our worst fear is rejection and we'd rather live alone than be rejected by someone we're in love with. (We don't think living alone is that bad, we are Is...) We are not easily risking our hearts.

3. You know, there's this ENFP/INTJ (NF/NT) automatic connection and I don't think doing tricks or saying something special will help. Just be yourself and you'll find the INTJ girl of your dreams.

4. If you are an ENFP know this: You are wonderful! Other people perceive you as a wonderful person they would like to be close to, or even be like. I have not met one NF that isn't deeply loved and admired by other people. You are unique and others feel happy around you. An ENFP can feel like a drug to other people, you make us feel good about ourselves. That said, you need to take care of your own needs too and not exhaust yourself giving too much to the people around you. Learning how to get good boundaries is important to an ENFP since you are people pleasers and others generally take advantage of someone aiming to please. Strive for that balance and continue to be wonderful. 

Posted By Zsych on 21 Dec 2009 11:23 AM
 Also find out how many sexual partners she's had. People with too many are harder to get very close to.

Wtf??? He is hardly in a position to ask about her sexual past. And how many is too many? So if you've slept with a few people, it's hard to be in a relationship? To me that is very strange logic... 

Its more a matter of what kind of philosophy that person has towards sex and relationships. But yeah, you're more jaded and less into believing in stuff like true love after you've been through more than a few.

Someone who moves in and out of them quickly and often though (un-INTJ like though that may be), will likely have a similarly shallow interest in you. Someone very attractive who goes through relationships casually knows she can pick and choose all she wants... and will probably never really choose anyone... because she knows that she still always has more options. 
On the other end of the spectrum are the guys and girls who hold themselves for marriage, who want to give their all and everything to one person... who, if you could get them, would probably invest a lot of feeling in you.

... It occurs to me to add that with an INTJ, beyond the emotional connection, you're obviously also looking for an intellectual connection. Make intelligent observations about things she cares about.

It's normal for one's self esteem to take a dive when you feel rejected.

It's as easy as this: If she is interested in you she may pull back when you chase her because she's scared of rejection (even if that doesn't make much sense,) that is nevertheless what you will have to do if you want her. If she's not into you she may pull back because she doesn't want to say to your face that she's not interested. Again, you'll have to probe more and find out why she's pulling back. She might be testing you or she might not be interested, it's hard to tell why she pulls back, but go with your gut instinct. I'd love chasing if I were interested, I'd hate it if I weren't...

On more than one occasion, I've analyzed my behavior after I've been hanging out with a guy I liked, where things didn't exactly go as I hoped it would. After, I see that I was being very dismissive, and I am very upset that I behaved like that, but I couldn't help it in the situation. We need to respect and look up to the guy we kiss/have sex with. Several men who have had summoned up the courage to kiss me, have said after that they got really nervous because they didn't know if I would hit them in the face or kiss them back. That has puzzled me, since I thought I was being super friendly and almost forward... Lol! So INTJ girls really need to work on what signals we give out. It's like I send of this crazy vibe: kiss me if you dare...

Ok, so definite signs of an interested INTJ would be: (This is only based on my experience though, maybe we can coax Esquilax to chime in with hers too.)

-Touching, it can either be her allowing you to touch her without looking offended/uncomfortable or more importantly: if she touches you for no reason, she wants to be close to you. We do not touch people if we don't have to/really want to. (If I'm with a guy and I touch him, I'm almost ready to marry him!!)

- Laughing at your jokes and looking at you so you understand that she understands your jokes even if no one else laughs 

- Going along if you fantasize about your future together. (I'd be quiet if someone mentioned a future I didn't see with that person.)  

- She is clueing you in to what is important to her: i.e hobbies, friends, dreams, hopes, grievances, pets etc.

- If she is leaning on you emotionally: i.e she comes to you for support when she feels down or misunderstood or just needs that NF-good vibe. It's huge for us to tell other people about our emotions, especially if we feel that we want to give up and we have nothing to fight for.

- If she is good at something and tries to simplify the subject so you'd understand what she's talking about. We often make ourselves dumber in order for other people to follow. It doesn't mean that we are super smart about everything, but when we are good at something we know a lot about it, and it's easy to forget that others aren't necessarily very interested in what we are...

Maybe she is unsure of where you stand and doesn't want to lose face by telling you she's got feelings for you? Especially if she has never been in a relationship, maybe she doesn't quite know what it takes to start one? Be brave and tell her how you feel.

An anecdote from my life:
I was 17 and dated my future husband. We saw each other almost every day for 3-4 months and spoke on the phone when we weren't together. After 3 months of no physical contact during our dates I concluded that he wasn't interested in anything but my friendship, but my friends thought that he was interested, since we spent so much time together. We went to concerts, museums, parties, movies and nothing happened. I got a bit tired of not knowing, so I did something very forward for being an INTJ. We were walking outside and I took his hand, blaming the cold weather, asking him if it was ok if I warmed my hand in his. He allowed me to hold his hand and our hands always found each other on future dates. After a month of hand holding I thought it was time to kiss, so at a party I feigned a headache and he accompanied me to a place I could lie down. We just lay close on a bed and I thought if he doesn't seize the opportunity now and kisses me, I'm going to hit him! I could hear his heart racing in his chest. I said that I felt better and then I kept my mouth shut. After 5 full minutes of silence, he kissed me, and after that we were officially a couple. I thought I was being very forward with him. He told me after, that he thought I wasn't interested and he didn't dare kiss me.... The morale of the story is that it's easier to take that chance and get the answer so you can move on if you are wasting your time and feelings on someone who is not interested.

Her looks and other offers have nothing to do with her possibly rejecting you. It doesn't matter how many offers she gets from other guys who are statistically most likely to be Ss... We need to feel understood and loved, and other guys don't hold a candle to you if you have that NT/NF connection. Don't worry about it. We are not superficial and we see beyond looks. (I'm sure you are cute, but you mentioned she was gorgeous.) Flattery will actually make you lose appeal to us, unless we know you love us and we trust it's sincere. So any random pick up line or comment about her looks will most likely not hit home with her. I've become a bitch on occasion if I've been complimented on my looks if I didn't feel it was sincere, if I feel they just want to get into my pants, and told guys to just f*** off! (Yes, we are nice aren't we?) Worry less about other guys and muster up the courage to find out where she stands with you. 

There's some great advice in this thread.

Fransisco, just be yourself! Good luck

Posted By Zsych on 21 Dec 2009 01:28 PM

Its more a matter of what kind of philosophy that person has towards sex and relationships. But yeah, you're more jaded and less into believing in stuff like true love after you've been through more than a few.

Someone who moves in and out of them quickly and often though (un-INTJ like though that may be), will likely have a similarly shallow interest in you. Someone very attractive who goes through relationships casually knows she can pick and choose all she wants... and will probably never really choose anyone... because she knows that she still always has more options. 
On the other end of the spectrum are the guys and girls who hold themselves for marriage, who want to give their all and everything to one person... who, if you could get them, would probably invest a lot of feeling in you.

 

 

Zsych, I wildly disagree with you and think you have a very closed mind. It doesn't work like that.  A person may have had several partners because they've felt lonely or haven't been in love. That doesn't make them incapable of loving someone or recognizing a true connection when that special someone arrives. It simply means that it hasn't been right in the past. No one loves or makes you feel loved like an NF! I wouldn't care if my future ENFP husband have slept with a lot of women. I'd actually think that it prepared him for being with me, and that I'm lucky to experience something real rather than a fling.

Experience is good! Experienced people know more about what they want and what they don't want. No experience in sex/relationships is not so good in my book... You will come to realize later in life that marriage is just a mutual agreement and it doesn't solve anything, marriages can end. Getting married doesn't guarantee you a friction free relationship for the rest of your life. Not having sex before marriage sounds very naïve to me as I feel that sex is the glue in a relationship and it's important that it works for the relationship to hold. A great connection doesn't constitute a great sex life. It's not like you have a quota for sex and you use it up if you have sex with others. It makes you more aware of your likes and dislikes and you get to know your body. To have a healthy sex life it is especially important for a woman to know her body. 

Wow psyko, we are 6/6 on signs of interest!  She often asks for massages and we sit close together whenever we're using my laptop on my couch/bed.  She has come to me for emotional support about other friends, and we constantly joke about our future together (getting married at 40 if theres no one else - is this what you were talking about?).  We are constantly laughing, I do accents for her, and she looks at me to get little jokes that no one around us would understand.

One question - could an INTJ ever have this kind of relationship with a friend of the opposite gender.  How much does sexual attraction play into your relationships?  She is by any standards a beautiful girl and I am decent, not sure someone she would generaly be attracted to.

Either way, thank you so much for your feedback, this has given me the confidence I needed!  I will make sure I get to the bottom of this and not abandon hope.

Also, a friend of mine suggested I bring some of my guy friends to the wild animal park with me - It was going to be me, her and 3 of our mutual female friends, who are a little closer to her as she is one of their close knit female group of friends.  I think bringing my buds puts me more in my comfort zone (knowing all of the group), and it gives me a chance to get some more one-on-one time with her.  Thoughts?

Thanks again for all the feedback guys!

Really, the idea of bringing guy friends along seems suspicious to me. Make sure you ask her first and then her friends whether they'd like more company.

@Psyko: Well the whole idea was to gather information to get more insight (not that I think he really needs to be concerned considering more stuff he's said). I agree that marriage is an agreement. And someone who puts importance into it and takes it seriously, is more likely to hold to it than someone who doesn't place that much important in relationships and their agreements.
... Time for the philosophical side of things (not for Francisco). Through most of history, no one has ever cared a huge amount about love and sex as pre-requisites for starting strong relationships (like marriage). Uptil the 1950s, love wasn't the most important thing even Americans looked for in a relationship. More than 50% of marriages nowadays end up in divorce. That says nothing for the vastly greater number of relationships based on feelings that are born and die. Feelings are not a good source of long term decision making for most people. If you're looking for a long term partner, you need to make sure their psychology supports a long term relationship. Lets just differentiate here between:
1. No or very few previous relationships
2. A fair number of serious relationships
3. A huge number of relationships.

I don't trust #3 to be putting in honest effort into maintaining relationships, or to have any sense of what they'd want in someone they would want to spend their whole life exclusively with. And sure this might not apply to everyone, and yes experience does help you mature and learn what you want and how to deal with other people better... and yes, the number of previous relationships is not by itself alone enough of an indicator of whether you'd want to try having a relationship with someone. Although I'd personally still automatically filter out #3 as most likely not worth the effort, if I'm looking for something long term. If #3 decided to stick with me after countless failures, that would be just plain luck that she finally stops at me (assuming she hasn't been with countless INTJs of course )

And I'm going to add this: I don't think there is any the one for me. Potentially there could be any number of women I might be able to have relationships I'd appreciate with, out there. If I were out looking, and spent too much time on the wrong groups, I'd never end up finding one that does suit me. You can't check everyone, so you have to filter.

Also find out how many sexual partners she's had. People with too many are harder to get very close to.

Abridged version:

Ok, without reading my essay below, in summary, I think this girl is totally into you, is frightened of a relationship given her experience, doesn’t want to mess things up, but is giving signs hoping that you pick-up on her attraction to you so you make the first moves.
I hesitate with advice on the one hand, not knowing her personally, but on the other hand based on the things you’ve mentioned, I recognize a lot of myself  in her and I know what’s going on internally. Currently engaged in similar INTJ-ENFP warfare

Full version:

Can’t speak for all INTJ females, but this is my (super-introverted INTJ) take on things.

She's flirtatious (is this an INTJ thing?). Are INTJ females generally flirtatious?  Is it possible I'm just reading too much into her flirtation and that she only sees me as a friend?

Nope. I never flirt just for fun or if I’m not interested. Honestly, I really don’t know how, and if I attempt, it’s pretty subtle. So if she’s flirting and you actually realise it, this is a good sign. I don’t think you’re reading too much into it.
I definitely don’t like giving the WRONG idea. There’s been platonic male friends where I’ve detected a hint of interest, there was a potential date-like scenario and I’ve bailed just because I don’t want that 1:1 time incase they get the wrong impression.

Did I mention how sexy you look right now?

Complimenting you? Again, good sign. We’re not really forthcoming with the compliments, unless we really really like you

She talked all week about how she was decidedly getting drunk with our group of friends and about how much fun we were going to have.

Yeah, can relate too. In my head I hope getting very drunk and lowering my inhibitions will give me enough courage to make a move on someone, and I totally build the situation up in my head, but it never eventuates. INTJness still reigns

Another point to make about the night - I noticed a lot less affection from her in general - almost as if she was avoiding me!

 

Yes, she was avoiding you, but not because she doesn't like you or was upset for some reason,

I did the EXACT same thing just a couple of days ago. I knew the boy's position at all times and made sure there was maximal distance between us at all times, and preferably not be within sightlines either. He moved within my 20-50m radius;  I moved out (yes 50 metres! We’re talking EPIC distance). Even hung out in the toilets for a while because I ran out of hidey places.

WHY? Our time together is usually 1:1, where I can let my guard down and (try to) be that bit flirtier and develop our relationship without witnesses. But there was lots of people around this time and I’m terrified that someone will see through me and realise the attraction. Worst. Nightmare. My closest friends that I’ve known for 5 years have never heard me mention so much as a crush, let alone someone I love. 
Even once most people had left and he approached my friend and I, I was very indifferent and hardly said a word. Absolutely kicking myself, but protection-mode prevails.

2.  With an INTJ female, do I need to take more initiative?

ALL of the initiative. ALL. Longest I’ve wanted a boy for without making any advances was 4 years. FOUR, dude.  Never wait for an INTJ to make a move!

The only reason I ultimately did let him know (and the only time I’ve ever taken initiative, by writing him a letter) was because our lives were going separate ways and if he rejected me I’d likely never see him again. 

Current boy I’ve been attracted to for 2 years. I’d love nothing more than for him to call me out on it. Really just want to know for sure if it’s reciprocated. We pick up signs from you too, but like yourself, we're afraid it’s just overinterpretation, especially with you ENFPs being so friendly to everyone , we think it's nothing.

You need to get her one-on-one, not with friends.

Verbally: being open, direct, unambiguous and honest. You’re attracted to her, you want to date her. Don’t feebly test the waters. The subtlety will likely go over our heads. There’s been times, thinking back over a conversation where I’ve realised what was going on muct later, in retrospect.
Physically: getting touchy will clue you in. I HATE most people touching me. To the point where I’ve physically recoiled in horror at someone’s touch and all they did was grab my arm. All class, lol.  If I liked you I would welcome affectionate prolonged stroking of the knee, leg/thigh, back. If you can stroke my hair or touch my face, you’re so in. She's asking for massages? Ding ding ding.

3. How can I better keep an INTJ female's attention or continue an initial spark/attraction?

By being you. Once we’ve made up our mind and decided we want you, it’s pretty hard to change our minds till we get what we want Very stubborn, lol. Except we don’t follow-through. You need to make a move. You might need to drag her kicking and screaming. Like, I’m getting closer with aforementioned boy, it’s exactly what I want, but I’m pussyfooting around and almost running in the other direction out of fear, I think. Don’t know how to overcome it. Maybe like a frightened animal that needs gentle coaxing at first, then amp it up.