We'll I have never been in a dating relationship with an INTP girl.

I guess lets start here.

Any Cryp, you tag any ENFP girls? So what attracts you to the ENFPs?

Random? Outgoing? Charm? Caring of the F?

haha nah, nah. From what I've seen on forums (though I don't know any irl), INTP girls are pretty identical to guys. I dunno about other ENFPs, of course, but I get the feeling you probably wouldn't attract many, because you're in it for the sex. I couldn't even imagine sleeping with someone I wasn't quite tightly intellectually and emotionally entangled with, and I couldn't imagine ever getting that close to anyone unless we were friends whose relationship developed over time, as we hung out together and had fights and helped each other through things.

In short: our relationship patterns run contrary to every stereotype and "standard relationship advice" that exists. Too reasonable for that crap .

I don't think I've known any ENFP girls, ever, but I marvel at the ENFP guys' ability to manipulate social atmospheres. It's probably the intuition, but I'm impressed by the ability to watch every single person and read their mood throughout an entire conversation--while participating in it yourself. Seeing that all is impressive enough, but then I love watching how you can bring the mood back to a peaceful equilibrium with some comment that makes it look like you didn't actually "act" at all.

That's probably the #1 thing. Other than that, the enthusiasm is (er.... can be) uplifting and encouraging... though it can also be really annoying if I'm not in the mood for it. I like watching the atmosphere of the room brighten when you walk into it, though. The randomness is... meh. I dunno. I don't think anything seems very random to an INTP. The only things that really seem random, like they have no train of thought to them at all, are ones where the person was trying to be random--which is, of course, not random at all. We suck with feelings, but most INTPs are like mind-readers, when it comes to extroverts (who show so much) or people we know well.

Most of all, though, I'm hooked on the intuition and completely different point of view. You guys are the only ones I've ever known who can make "how something is said" seem important to me. Before ENFPs, I hated when people would change the way they said something just to make it more palatable, thinking it was always fake and deceptive. Things like "criticism yields more progress if the person accepts it, and changing how you say it makes them more likely to agree and accept it" (and similar reasons, for other distasteful things besides criticism) never even occurred to me.

I don't think I've known any ENFP girls, ever, but I marvel at the ENFP guys' ability to manipulate social atmospheres. It's probably the intuition, but I'm impressed by the ability to watch every single person and read their mood throughout an entire conversation--while participating in it yourself. Seeing that all is impressive enough, but then I love watching how you can bring the mood back to a peaceful equilibrium with some comment that makes it look like you didn't actually "act" at all.

I have a friend who is a drop dead beautiful 10/10 enfp (who is now married) and when she walks in a bar... the whole place is put under her spell. Men and women alike get sucked up in her whirlwind. I've seen her seduce groups of people at once, just with a smile.

When we hung out, before she was married when we both hung out in the bar... lets just say it was like a sun was burning inside. We would get the entire bar drunk even if they weren't drinking. That energy is amazing. I see what you mean.

When I'm in a group, I feel like I'm holding a balance, constantly shifting attention, complements, wise words and agreements to make sure everyone is included. But then I have to make sure I'm preaching some kind of idealism

Back to INTP girls, I think they would be to distant to me. Being the NF I haven't figured out if I'm to sensitive for a NT girl.

I'm dating an ENTJ and an INTJ girl now. I'm not sure yet if I'm comfortable with the powerful NT they will have over me. Its kind of funny, I can already tell they express affection via actions. especially the INTJ. I wonder if she is master-minding me as we speak.

lol yea the ENTJ is an ass kicking machine. The INTJ, I haven't figured out yet.

haha. Well, I can probably tell you that if the INTJ found out you were dating the ENTJ too, she'd be pissed. I dunno about the ENTJ though. Yes, though... what you describe in the bar definitely sounds like what I've seen the people in the rooms that I'm in do (ok... ok. I find myself doing it sometimes, too )

Yeah, I think I read somewhere (on here?) that ENFPs go nuts if they don't really get any feedback in a relationship. Like you said, don't know if you're too sensitive, or whatever. I definitely think that INTPs are the least-reactive of all types, and so that would make you go crazy... but I can at least give you some reason behind that.

I didn't realize until.... *scratches head*... probably about 11th grade, that you're actually expected to put out effort to make friends, and that people assume you're not friendly or don't like them, if you don't. I would go to hang out with people, go to basketball games/movies/etc, and just sort of figured that it was an assumed friendship. If I suddenly didn't see them for 6 months (as in, neither of us put out any effort to do anything), I would assume that there was nothing really to do, and that our relationship was basically frozen in time from whenever we last interacted. That is, if nothing happened to change it, then it must not have changed.

Whereas, it sounds like you guys would be freaking out if you didn't hear from someone for that long. Er... either that, or just found other friends and forgotten about them, I guess, depending on how much that someone meant to you. So I could definitely see that being an issue, because your INTP's natural state is to not give any signals back, and you guys sort of thrive on and adapt to the signals you get.

I also think that we're probably approaching dating and relationships from different angles. ENFPs seem extremely pliable. Short of being extremely selfish, I can't think of much that someone could do to chase you away, once you've fallen for them... if I had to guess (again, correct me if I'm wrong), you probably think that pretty much everything that "everybody else" looks for in a relationship is ridiculous... that is, mannerisms, job goals, and whatever else. If the person would enjoy you better if you didn't go to baseball games, you'd probably not try to force them to come with you, even if you loved baseball.

The INTP pretty much assumes that a person acts exactly themselves, and is looking around for someone they "just fit with." If you start changing your little preferences, searching for a reaction, they'll either think that you're fake, get confused, or not realize what you're doing at all. If everyone's acting exactly how they are, then eventually you'll hit on someone who loves you for you, and who you love for themselves. If you date someone a few times and realize they don't fit, then *shrug* and move on. If you get along well and understand each other, then we'd keep it up and wait for the relationship to mature. Of course, it's a severe fault of ours that we never actually *do* anything to mature the relationship, lol, we just kinda wait for it to happen. If you want to learn how to make it happen, http://homepage.mac.com/bahlberg/iblog/B1386252977/C707866389/E343663288/index.html has the best advice I've ever seen.

It's just a difference in questions. An ENFP seems to be asking "can I make this work?" while the INTP asks "is this person right for me?" (wow, the selfishness of that just struck me...). Anyway, to get an answer, you guys need a whole lot of feedback... but the INTP knows that if they give feedback, you'll start changing and they won't figure out how you really are. Not to mention that "give feedback" isn't exactly hardwired into us... so even if we aren't consciously withholding it (which I could totally see myself doing), you probably won't get much anyway.

Hey,

I've got a reasonably close INTP friend so maybe my experiences with help?

Crypt, thanks for linking to that article! I have an INTP friend, and I've been forever wondering how I can allow them to feel comfortable enough to share what's really going on. Or put differently to feel they can trust me should they ever want to talk about something. I think I may have been trying to guide him. I really do care what he has to say, so I'll try and be more open ended and give him the space to speak next time I see him.

Also, what do you think about the below?

For me, it can be a bit of a defeating relationship with my INTP friend because I'm always the one who has to begin the communication and show the interest. Sometimes I feel like I could disappear and it wouldn't be noticed to them. And being an ENFP, it can be a little stressful because there are only little ways for me to tell that they are actually my friend, and care, and they can be easily forgotten or overlooked. Not to mention the fact it is quite tricky to work out what an INTP would like to do (for fun or whatever), if anything, and then getting them to commit lol

The other thing I've found is that INTPs tend to have room for only one person at a time, and will often give everything to their partner whilst all but forgetting about the other people who care about them. In fact, sometimes they can be incredibly uncaring or forgetful about things to do with friends. (Such as forgetting someones Birthday! lol)

All that said, there is something I really like about the INTP, and their quite, coy and thoughtful nature. They may be pretty reserved most of the time, but those moments when the open up a bit, or share in some joke etc, it can be such a wonderful moment.

----

Crypt: If you have any thoughts and advice for communicating and developing my friendship further with an INTP, you'd have my undivided attention and I'd be hugely appreciative!

Thanks,
Chris

I'm glad I checked back here . I'm trying to focus on school for a while, so I'm really not very active... but luckily this thread did catch my eye.

umm... hmm. I'm not gonna lie, I don't think I'd be able to put up with us, if I were you, haha. To be honest, I'm not even sure what makes me good friends with people. Friendships either sorta happen, or they don't. I tend to find that if the tone of "this is going to be a deeper, meaningful friendship" isn't set way early on (first few weeks or so), it almost never happens. Or at least... I need to see some signs of good, solid thought. That doesn't have to be as purely cold or intellectually stimulating as you probably have in mind, though. It's true that I do really like talking to someone who has interesting thoughts (I bumped into an ENTP friend of mine at 2:00 AM last night, and we talked and argued about things like how our school views/values science as opposed to the humanities, what ultimately causes differences in peoples' political opinions, etc, until around 4:30. We only broke up because the sports teams were waking up for early morning practices, and we realized we had classes in a few hours)... but that's really only one sort of thought. For something that probably bores you guys a lot less, I also really appreciate signs of what I consider personal maturity--which requires some measure of careful thought. The thing that took me off-guard about my best friend now (who's an ENFP) is that he could explain how people work so well. He understood that even if you're upset with someone, as soon as they say they think that they might actually be at fault for it, your feelings towards them because of that fault dissolve away. He also explained how he can respect people who complain about seemingly ridiculous things because someone's feelings about a situation can be as big of a problem to them as the thing itself--so while they're complaining about something ridiculous, and an INTP is thinking "are you serious? You can't be serious that something this stupid is an actual 'problem'," the ENFP can see how what might not be a problem for themselves could be a problem for other people, because the emotional component is different for everyone. People without deeper concerns might perceive shallower ones as serious problems, so you're really just being an ass by fitting the external situation into your own life and judging them by it.

^^Hearing things like that from someone practically screams out "share your thoughts with me!" And I make sure I do, if I ever think he'd be interested in them. The only thing that might lead to a problem (for you especially) is that those types of friendships can quickly turn into idea-swapping sessions. I know that at some point, I realized that all my friendships were mostly idea-swapping sessions (in the best cases), and suddenly discovered that I wasn't actually close to anyone. I don't think many INTPs do that, though... or at least not until they're older (college-ish age? Maybe shortly after?), so you might just end up frustrated as time goes on.

As far as actually getting personally close to INTPs.... I would say that the best thing you can do is talk about peoples' faults (whenever it comes up naturally in a conversation, including your own if necessary--but that can be dangerous if you mistake some psychopath for a somewhat normal INTP) as if they were perfectly reasonable, respectable, and normal. My guess is that this could probably go either way (depending on how much respect they have for people, you might end up in an argument defending your opinions)... but seeing as how you're all basically salesmen anyway, you shouldn't have too much trouble convincing them to see things your way . I think that that's the best way to make them feel close to you, and eventually they're bound to start sharing pieces of themselves too.

I think you could get away with nudging them a little bit, too, and fit all the different types of discussions you might have together to get them to share themselves with you. For instance, if you were talking about why siblings interact the way they do, and what factors may cause them to change their relationship as the years go by and they grow up, you could ask them how their relationship with their siblings has changed over the years too. If you've been treating normal sibling-sibling character flaws as normal and respectable over your time with them, then they'll feel comfortable enough to explain their imperfect relationship, and you'll get to know how they think a bit better. If you can't find something interesting about the way they think while they describe that to ask them about it (tangents are more than welcome ), then either they're not INTP, or your Ne is broken . Repeat and reapply in several similar situations, and you might just find yourself with a close INTP-friend.



As far as any external signs that they're your friend... *shrugs*. I'm not sure if I'd worry about it, if I were you. I haven't the slightest idea when any of my friends' birthdays are, and I'm not sure I ever have. I don't really want them to do anything for me on mine (in fact, I'd strongly prefer if they didn't), so I don't think a whole lot about theirs. As far as what to do for fun, also *shrugs*. I go through phases where I'll do absolutely anything, without preference, to hang out with the people there, and phases where I'll only go to do something I like, without regard for the people involved at all. I'm not even sure exactly what shifts me from one way of thinking to another, but it's not like I would feel any closer to the people involved if they changed what they were going to do to accommodate me, if I'm in the second mood. I'd actually probably be a bit annoyed by it, for the attention and the now-pressure I'd feel to go and show how much I enjoy it.

We definitely do suck at showing appreciation, though. If I don't see someone for 9 months, unless we left on a bad note I'd assume our relationship was exactly the same as it was the last time I saw them. Since I've gotten to know ENFPs better, I'm sort of on the lookout for types of people who would like a bit more reassurance, and trying to give it to them... but it doesn't come naturally, and I never would have done it without studying MBTI. I'd say that if they ever call you without your initiating it, you're pretty much guaranteed that they think of you as a friend, lol. It's not always the case that if they don't call you, then they don't think of you as a friend... but if they ever do call, then you're definitely in good shape. The other thing is that INTPs (especially judging by INTPforum folks) tend to be really "strict" on who they call friends and who they don't. I had to make a conscious decision to call people who I just sorta hang out with (even pretty often) "friends" so as not to piss people off in middle and high school, but after seeing lots of other INTPs, I can pretty confidently say that, at least at young-ish school ages, very few of them actually conceptualize friendship in the same way that other people seem to. I'm sure they exist, but on the forum there were no exceptions below the age of about 20 (and besides me, below about 30).

Anyway, good luck! I'll try to keep remembering to check back here, so if you have any more questions, I'll do my best . I love explaining things, cause it always makes it so much clearer to me, too, lol.

Wow thanks for the lengthy reply! I really appreciate it seeing you mentioned how hectic life is with school at the moment. If it helps me connect a little better with my friend, then I will be eternally grateful. I would give you a hug and all, but I can imagine your reaction and the "Ahhh, get away from me!" look you'd have on your face lol.

To be honest, I'm not sure about the myers brigg stuff when it comes to myself. I seem to change a lot. I think the iNtuitive and Percieving part stays, but my E/I and F/T changes a lot with my mood. I find for me, that it can be really a very dangerous thing to combine thinking and feeling with perceiving, as it is very easy to end up with the worst of both worlds, if that makes any sense? They can all turn me into a big brooding mess if I'm not careful, making me impatient, and impatiences for me is perhaps the worst thing of all :p It makes me act for the wrong reasons at the wrong time with the wrong outcome.
With regards to the E/I, well I can be really very sociable and chatty sometimes, but I would much much rather have one really good friend who I can trust completely, and I find myself (similarly to you by the sounds of it) hard pressed to define most people as "Friends". There seems to be a lot of "people I know" but I still only have one person I'd call a friend, and even then it is only half-way to the type of friend I would like. One could say that I meet people easily, but a scarce few are friends.

Is that similar to what you meant about the friend thing?

Okay, that's it, I'm officially changing my MBT to xNxP! lol

And I don't think any of that was relevant to the discussion! Oh well!

p.s. I personally think you really should do something about your friends' birthdays though, assuming they aren't just 'friends by title'. For me, it isn't about a present or a party, it is more about knowing people care enough about me to remember without having to or being forced to. Does that make sense? What I mean is that your family is obligated to force you into some sort of unwanted celebration (lol), but your friends aren't - or at least shouldn't be. I don't make a big deal about my birthday, or talk about it, so for me, a friend remembering of their own accord would be about the most genuine and valuable thing that could happen. Mind you, I think I'm in an INFP mood at the moment, lol.

O.O I need to interject here.... There's a stereotype I need to swat away. In it for the sex. >.> This simply isn't true of ENFP women...at least not as many as guys...and maybe more mature, sexually confident ENFP women. The ENFP girls I know are universally set against flings. >.> We're all waiting for someone to sweep us off our feet, and we're perfectly comfortable shooting down anyone else who comes along. I get too emotionally invested in people to ever have a one-night-stand. I know it wouldn't be that easy....and I'd rather not do anything than have the regret of that. ><

Anyway....you're dating an INFP.... ENFPs have alot of the same traits, just different emphasis. Like that deeply rooted core value system that is certain death by impassioned speech if you cross it on an INFP.... It's there with an ENFP too: we just tend to be more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt a few times or it has to be a big infraction for us to leap into action to defend it. It's important for us not to hurt people....and let's face it, guys don't really think sex could hurt anyone.

Posted By cryptonia on 24 Jul 2009 09:25 AM
haha. Well, I can probably tell you that if the INTJ found out you were dating the ENTJ too, she'd be pissed.

I don't recognize myself in that. If I thought there was a mutually exclusive deal, yes I'd be pissed if I found out, but as long as you are upfront about seeing others Saul, you'd be fine with her I think. But we will distance ourselves a bit in that situation and may think that we can't compete with the other women you see. I can date several men at the same time and I tell them that I see other men, and I say that I think they should be seeing other women too. So as long as you are honest and appeal to our rationality, I think you can get away with almost everything. As an NT I can rationalize almost everything. I can have sex with someone just for the pleasure of it and not get emotionally involved if that is what is agreed upon in the beginning. But I can't do that if I'm already emotionally involved with someone of course.

As for being too sensitive for NTs Saul, you have to find a mature NT/INTJ who is capable of being expressive and say to her that you need to hear that she loves you very often. She's out there, I'm one of those who needs to say/hear that I'm loved/love my partner and I'm very affectionate and in tune with my partner, so maybe not go for the extreme end of the I scale? (I think it'd easier to get what you want if you're not with an extremely introverted person.)

I keep reading about ENFP's (female especially) being all about attention and sex. It's distrurbing to read stuff like this because it gives us a bad name. There was this guy who I ended up having a conversation with (in Barnes and Nobles) and MBTI came up and when I told him I was an ENFP he was shocked. The guy said he read on forums how fickle ENFP's are to men and how they have lots of casual relationships and flirt. The only thing he said seemed ENFP-ish was how I dressed which he said he read on socionics. He just assumed I was an INFX.

Cryptonia, that's not how all ENFPs are!

I don't particularly buy into socionics...and most of the descriptions for that branch of personality type are REALLY negative. >.> A socionics ENFp (the last letter being lower case is the first hint you're not talking about the same types...) is supposed to be a gossipmonger. MBTI doesn't get that specific and shouldn't....I don't give much credence to any type description that goes into alot of detail about tendencies and attributes. This is a piece of your personality...not the whole. Yea, we have similarities...but how we're raised, our motivations, the values we nurture, the experiences we have, the people we surround ourselves with, and a million other factors are going to make us different.

I'm glad I checked back here . I'm trying to focus on school for a while, so I'm really not very active... but luckily this thread did catch my eye.

Remember what was expressed.

Friendships either sorta happen, or they don't

Crypt, please review:

http://www.petermalakoff.com/character_and_fate.html
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Heraclitus

He understood that even if you're upset with someone, as soon as they say they think that they might actually be at fault for it, your feelings towards them because of that fault dissolve away. He also explained how he can respect people who complain about seemingly ridiculous things because someone's feelings about a situation can be as big of a problem to them as the thing itself--so while they're complaining about something ridiculous, and an INTP is thinking "are you serious?

Very good.

I know that at some point, I realized that all my friendships were mostly idea-swapping sessions (in the best cases), and suddenly discovered that I wasn't actually close to anyone. I don't think many INTPs do that, though... or at least not until they're older (college-ish age? Maybe shortly after?), so you might just end up frustrated as time goes on.

Review Aristotle's view on friendship: (this is my view)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-ethics/#Fri

Posted By electriclady on 01 Oct 2009 03:38 PM

Cryptonia, that's not how all ENFPs are!

...sorry?  What did I say that was offensive?  Looking back, the only thing I thought would hurt would be the "you're just in it for the sex" bit, but that was directed towards sbalbom specifically.  Was it that, or did I say something else?  Im sorry .

 

 

 

cool links, sbalbom.  I haven't read the Aristotle one yet, cause my classes are a pain in the ass this semester (I'm sooo done with physics after this.  Luckily I only need like 3 more of them to complete my degree, so I'm ok with being sick of them--it just means no grad school), but I found the others interesting.  I'll have to take time to digest them, though.

...remember what was expressed?  Sorry, I've no idea what you're talking about.  ...email me if it's important?  My memory is very poor.

I have over two years of experience with this!! I'm an INTP girl dating an ENFP guy. This has truly been the biggest challenge of my life, but when I try to relieve myself by breaking up with him, I find that I cannot do it because I am so attached to his sweet enthusiasm. He is so waaaarm and passionate. I look at him while he is sleeping, and I just smile at how cute it is that he is actually lying there, quiet and still. When he wakes up, he will be bouncing around again. It's so freakin' cute.

So what is this aforementioned challenge?? omg...It has been horrible, no matter how cute he is. The issue is trust. When we'd just started dating, he went back to his country (Brazil) and cheated on me because he never thought he'd be so serious with an American girl (me). As mentioned in the "ENFP cheater" thread, I suppose he's one of those that doesn't fully commit until he has focused...hard... on such a thing as commitment. My concern is that it will never be a real focus for him. I don't know. His eyes wander TOO much. He still sends little messages to the girl he cheated on me with, and he tells me he doesn't like her "like that" anymore. She's just a good friend of his family back home. He talks to his best friend (here in the U.S.) sometimes, and he's always saying how the girls in Brazil are beaaauuutiful and that he (his friend) needs to go there!!

One VERY important thing about INTP's, espcially for an ENFP to consider: We take words very seriously. If you tell us something, we expect it to be true and consistent. I hate this about my boyfriend. He says what he thinks I want to hear all too often. His "yes" is not always yes. His "no" is not always no. I have to try to read between the lines of his sketchy attitude, but this is terribly difficult because I have the problem of over-analyzing and assuming all white lies or omissions lead to a cover-up of what he's already done in the past: CHEAT!!

I also hate going out and socializing with him in groups. I lose all of my energy, and he gains so much momentum that he can hardly stand to go home after 10 hours. Oh gosh, not to mention...he gets pretty drunk almost every time. He's such an energetic drunk, laughing and playing! I find myself getting offended by everything he says, although I know it's just a difference in our personality. I think he should have more self-control with his words.

I really don't know how we are compatible, besides sharing some core beliefs (about God, money-handling and some other things). Our attraction must have everything to do with the mystery between us. But after a while, INTP's don't like mystery anymore. We like to KNOW things, or at least think we know them.

Hmm... I think the ENFP reputation of being fickle is to say that ENFPs often follow strong emotions. And an ENFP might lose interest in you and go to someone else who makes her feel more. While they are in relationships, ENFP are supposed to be committed, but ENFP might not remain in the relationship for all that long - thus fickle.

I on the other hand, could actually be in a relationship where there was little to no spark, if it was actually necessary for some reason. If I had made an agreement with someone (like marriage), then it would not matter if I lost my feelings for her. I'd try to keep her happy still, and try to keep the relationship working. My promises are stronger than my feelings, and I can tolerate almost anything. Of course, it is really hard to get me to make any kind of promise. LOL.


Hmm... I have never really read Aristotle (studied mostly eastern stuff). Friendship is reciprocal good will. That is exactly my point of view. Need to meet more people like this.

I'm sorry about that, Cryptonia. Hehe...total misunderstanding. Yeah, I thought you meant it like that. .