When I am in charge of SJs I don't mind at all, but when they are at my level or above me, it makes me want to puke.

Do you have hard times with SJ?

I know a few ESTJ's and these are some pointers based on them:

* ESTJ will value laws, rules and processes more than you do. Do not make fun about them.
* ESTJ will respect your logical ideas. Make an effort to explain them:
* - Once you have intuitively generated a wild idea, build the logical incremental path from here & now to that idea step-by-step. Explain the idea like this, using facts and deductive rationale to explain why you selected each step.
* Use your extroverted thinking - explain everything by facts and logic, thoroughly.
* Be specific: "Yes" or "no" - rather not "maybe" or "yes & no".
* Try to take part in the company events and small-talk in everyday office life. This will help you understand the ESTJ and others better. Otherwise you'll be that weird person sitting alone (wonder if he's dangerous).
* Do not try dark humor. ESTJ jokes are often about something or someone not being "normal". This is strengthened because they have a very clear view of how things should be - so the "normal" is defined rather narrowly.
* ESTJ will have expectations about how you should behave. Discuss early on: what does he expect of you at your work. Make it happen. You will become friends.
* ESTJ will value family. The ones I know are patriotic, too.
*Little Common ground: T and J. Schedules, simplicity, logic, facts. The ESTJ's I know do not get along that well with NF's as NT's. Also, strong P-types tend to piss them off - they do not like people being late for deadlines, not making decisions early enough or creating new versions of ideas instead of deducting.

Estj boss

Anyway it will be hell, he'll talk to you all day long about his wife, his child, how he's going to send his child to a normal school because he doesn't want him to be posh, how he'll make him go to Karate so he can defend himself...then he'll show you some pics of nude women that his brother's wife (who both work there) just emailed him. This extrovert wife of his brother will then walk in 5 mins later, beaming as if she's discovered a cure for cancer and announce "did you get my email, it's funny isn't it *hahaha"...you'll shudder to yourself and wonder if you're in the twilight world.

Then he'll bombard you with personal questions, so you got a girlfriend, where did you meet, what's she like, do you love her, do you see her much...you evade all questions and he's looking at you smiling, knowing you want to smash his face in but you gently smile and laugh. Later in the day he looks outside and sees a black man, he gets suspicious and asks a colleague to go keep an eye on him...a while later a group of 10 or so young muslim children are walking up the road on a school trip, he looks at them as if they've just raped his wife and utters a flurry of insults to out load to the office.

So do you think I'm racist, he asks, knowing his is, YES you say, and he starts laughing, no I'm not racist because I hired a Polish person...you don't bother to continue, he is so gone that you wonder if he has half a brain missing.

SJs are... nightmares, for me. Well... all except the ISTJ; they're usually goofy in private (around friends), and non-intrusive enough that we get along well.

I was interested, because a "most hated type?" threads popped up both on INTPforum, and both threads turned up "ESTJ" about 9/10 of the time. Then an ESTJ on Personalitycafe (an any-type mbti forum) made a "what do you guys think of ESTJs?" thread, which was answered with unanimous hatred.


That second post was quite helpful, though. ENFP advice on how to get along with different types of people is precious and valuable

OMG! I work directly with a male ESTJ (he THINKS he's ESFJ though - ha ha ha...no chance!) & he drives me NUTS! SO into rules (ick!), facts, 'the bottom line' (ugh), & even though he's NOT the boss, totally acts like it every second of every shift! Gag. HUGE control freak, really arrogant! To be honest though, this guy goes WAAAY beyond your typical ESTJ. This guy is *DEVIOUS*, a liar (you know how we ENFP's can sniff out a lie in an instant!), & sneaky. He's really insecure but acts VERY over confident! Yuck. I can't stand him! I want to claw my damn eyes out when working with him. Ha. He'll even "shush" us! I kid you not! Hello! =( Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! It's like we're his kindergarten class or something! By the way, sadly, he's a veterinarian!!! :-( He's low on compassion & sensitivity though he TOTALLY fakes it! He has clients fooled left right & centre into thinking he's just the greatest guy! I've been able to see right through him from the get go. I *HATE* how fake he is since authenticity is SOOO important to me/us (ENFP's)!!! I catch him lies all the time & it REALLY bothers me that he's phony with our clients. It's SO dishonest & these are good, honest people who are being duped by him! Makes me sad. I feel like I have to save them. Protect them. Argh.

~~~SJs are... nightmares, for me. Well... all except the ISTJ; they're usually goofy in private (around friends), and non-intrusive enough that we get along well.~~~

That's just it! Intrusive! 'My' ESTJ is *SOOO* VERY intrusive!!! Has to be hovering around you all the time, 'needing' to know what you're up to & if it's "ok" (with HIM!). Making sure everyone is doing as told, following the rules, being "professional". Gawd, I hate the word 'professional'!!! Makes me wanna scream! LOL.

I actually have a pretty good female, ISTJ friend but, I know what topics we can discuss & which ones I stay WELL away from. She's married to an INFJ, poor guy. Ha ha ha.

I actually have a pretty good female, ISTJ friend but, I know what topics we can discuss & which ones I stay WELL away from. She's married to an INFJ, poor guy. Ha ha ha.

my exwife was an ISTJ... yea I feel his pain. His J won't make it so bad though.

My mom is an ESTJ...so I feel the need to defend some of them. They just have very strong beliefs and their expectations in work can come off as heavy-handed. But as demanding as they can be...they're more concerned with getting work done than about who does it. They're not usually the type to pick on someone with excessive work (unless they believe they're helping you build character). Their value system is very much about the whole, rather than the individual, and it just takes them a great deal of effort to consider the feelings of others. They are not the type you want to go to with emotional complaints and no logic to back it up. They have no patience for "whining." They are exceptionally pragmatic and wonderful at solving problems efficiently if you have a real concern. >.> They are very outspoken if you cross a line or disregard a value, and you always know where you stand in their regard.

The problem I have with your description is the "if you have a real concern" thing. My real concerns are generally all about feelings, not facts or physical realities, so they would fall into the category of "whining," and the ESTJ would try to "help me build character" by adding criticism and invalidation to my already overwhelming pain, when I just need someone to comfort me until it passes. I have never yet met an ESTJ who wasn't painful to be around, because they tend to have no sensitivity whatsoever for the actual needs of people like me.

Posted By snail on 03 Aug 2009 02:31 AM
The problem I have with your description is the "if you have a real concern" thing. My real concerns are generally all about feelings, not facts or physical realities, so they would fall into the category of "whining," and the ESTJ would try to "help me build character" by adding criticism and invalidation to my already overwhelming pain, when I just need someone to comfort me until it passes. I have never yet met an ESTJ who wasn't painful to be around, because they tend to have no sensitivity whatsoever for the actual needs of people like me.

It's all how you sell it. I've had experience, so allow me to teach you. Generally, if someone is causing you emotional stress at work, address it in a more concrete way. It's not that they're upsetting you, it's that they are creating a hostile work environment. Keep a log of specific incidents and what was said. Then *they* come off as the unprofessional one, not you.

That is an interesting solution, although it doesn't really deal with the core problem: how can I get along with ESTJs when they refuse to take my feelings seriously?

You may not be giving them enough credit. When you expect confrontation, you give off nonverbal signals that read as defensive/hostile (which S types are more likely to read), and you end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy. Be positive. You have an issue, it's they're job as a supervisor to at least hear you out. And this is the big one here....I know I have a problem with this too...but be objective about criticism. Really listen to what they're saying, and don't assume they're writing you off. If you have to reexplain your issue, do so, but maintain calm. Getting all worked up won't help you and will just make them uncomfortable.

All I have to say is: OMG! What a huge challenge! I don't think I could ever realistically use your suggestion though I sure do wish I could! Well, not with the ESTJ that *I* work with, anyway. He's 100% unreasonable & unapproachable. Sadly, so is the big boss man. At least my ISTJ *friend* is reasonable AND approachable!

Sometimes you just have to go around people if they're going to be human roadblocks. They've got supervisors, and almost every company (unless it's privately owned) has some kind of human resources dept that you can call with concerns if you don't feel like they're being addressed.

Yeah...this is a privately owned & operated company (animal hospital). =( Hmmm...oh well. I already KNOW that you *cannot* trust the owner (big boss) so...if I were to go to him with concerns, my name would get mentioned to "Dale" (the ESTJ vet that thinks he's the boss - ha). I've seen it happen to a coworker. :-( Pretty sad/bad. By 'Dale' knowing who complained about his terrible behaviourk, it made things much worse for my poor, innocent coworker as you can well imagine. I basically just avoid/ignore Dale as much as I can. Thankfully, I'm mostly up front (reception) so...I can just close the door to the back area! THANK GOD! Ha. The boss is actually VERY loose on morals & the ESTJ vet is VERY fake & phony. I used to LOVE my job but, not since this "Dale" has been there. Morale is way down now! Sucks. I'm looking for something else. I don't feel comfortable being myself there anymore & ENFP's certainly can't handle that!

-shrug- Eventually, if there's enough stress, you'll probably just snap and walk out anyway. I had a very similar situation in a family owned bridal shop. The manager was a manipulative talker - he could convince anyone of anything....but remembering any discounts he offered was another story. His wife had a serious martyr complex, and you'd almost think she enjoyed going to the hospital or having her car blow up or whatever nightmarish thing happened to her at any given time....and she also had to be the first person to tell you about someone else's troubles in her "sincere, caring" voice. They both had this way of covering how fake they were by stating with annoying frequency that they were genuine and everyone else in the world was bad or dishonest or whatever. Anyway, the manager basically trained all the little highschool girls to be his gossip patrol. I told a story about a *PREVIOUS* boss and one of them called the manager's wife and said I was badmouthing them -_-;;;
She came storming in and brought me to the back office, where she tore into me, asking what my problem was. She then dredged up old crap from an issue we'd had with each other waaaaay before that I had long gotten over. (Basically, she thought I had yelled at her kids for climbing around on prom dresses and didn't let me know she had a problem. In fact, I heard from her husband, who hadn't been there that day, the next morning when he yelled at me for raising my voice at his kids. I almost quit that day.) Aaaaaanyways....after about 5 minutes of this, I was just done. I left.

agreed, I think... I think I'd have to quit any job with a boss who yelled at me, or even if they yelled regularly at other people. I don't think I'd walk out on the spot, unless it were really bad, but I think I'd start looking for another job and try to get out as quickly as possible.

It's almost amusing when some stranger or boss or some not-parent starts yelling at me and trying to be all threatening. I had a lot of it growing up, so it basically goes in one ear and out the other now. If they actually resort to physical violence, I'm pretty sure I'd have the control to walk out calmly and go to the cops. If it stays at yelling, it's really easy to take the wind out of their sails by not yelling back, and still just evaluating the content of whatever they're yelling at you for (whether it's actually my fault or not, what I should have done differently or if I made the right decision, etc). A well placed "oh... I'm sorry," when they hit on a good point, also does wonders .

I know exactly what you mean about remaining calm when another is freaking out. It's amazing & does wonders for the situation! If it doesn't calm THEM down, then it usually makes them more crazy & frustrated & I always find that amusing. Tee hee. You know...in a pathetic way. Ha. When people start yelling, well, I have NO time for that/them. It's a ridiculous way to act!

yeah. Haha in my experience, people usually just get more frustrated and angry. But what else could I do? I'm not about to start yelling at them back, I'm practically morally obligated to take any complaints against myself seriously (so I really do have to listen), I don't believe that how a point is delivered gives me the right to ignore it, and it's hard to walk out on a boss. Although, walking out and dealing with it later (or not at all) is probly the most likely, or at least second most likely, response.

Somehow both of my best friends from School are ESTJ. I had a huge argument recently with one. I was going to India, because I felt like that was where God wanted me, even though I was broke. She was like you shouldn't go if you're broke. I was following my heart, she was following her logic. Afterwards I couldn't figure out how we'd been friends for 16 years! But then I think I got it. Sometimes ESTJ and ENFP do exactly the same thing but for the opposite reasons. They're both very spontaneous! But I realise I can't share my philosophy on things with her. It will cause an argument.