I wanted to ask if there's anyone here who's doing a phD or pursuing a career in science that may have interesting insights to share. I am currently in the end of my second year in a biochemistry program and i am worried that i might have chosen the wrong career for me and i might even be considering leaving with a masters. Even though i am interested in science (but again i am interested in lots of other things...typical ENFP!) and although i like the theory and feeling i might contribute to knowledge that might benefit humanity; the lifestyle of doing research in the lab is not best suited for an ENFP in my opinion! Little interaction, detailed repetitive tasks, lots of technicality and rules and no life even working on weekends with little free time to pursue other interests, long-term commitment, etc. Anyone had a similar experience or has any advice for me? Can you have a successful career in science and still be an ENFP?

 

  

Better question: can we pursue a career in science and still be human beings? The answer, sadly, is no. I can relate-- a Ph.D. in physics sounded sexy when I went back to school, but I did not continue after I earned my Bachelor's, disillusioned with the idea. I would rather work to live than live to work.

The catch-- you'll need to devise and implement a realistic contingency plan if you stop half-way, and that may amount to more sweat in the short term. Science isn't something that goes very far in the business world.

I think a PhD in science is a good idea, even though I'm INTP...which might explain why taking advice from me might not be the best.

However, you could always go into biochemical education instead of biochemical research, since science desperately needs people who are good at working with other people and conveying ideas.

Plus, there are oppertunities in science research even for people who don't like the actual "researching" bit. Often times a great scientist is either very good in the lab, but not the best communicator, or not so focused on the lab, but the kind of person who links together everyone else's lab work and sees the "big picture" theory. You could be that person.

I thought I would get a PhD in science... but a lot like bowden, I'm nearing the end of my Junior year, and that just doesn't look like it's going to happen. To be fair, after this semester I'll only need like three classes to graduate, so I hurried through my degree real quick... but I think I overworked myself.

It's really not that I couldn't keep going... my grades are quite good (~3.5-3.6 area) and all of my hard classes are behind me... but last semester I took 4 physics classes and 2 computer science ones, and found myself absolutely miserable. Problem sets every week, incompetent teachers (2 of the 4, anyway. 1 of the others was mediocre, and the last one was spectacular. Overall I think they put their best teachers to teach the intro classes, though. The higher-ups are the researchers who have to teach to stay at the university), and every week the same type of work made it drudgery. I decided to take just 1 real physics class this semester, to let myself recover.

I suspect that grad school would be even more of the same (5 physics courses a semester instead of just 4, and no other work to balance it out), and I also suspect it would be even worse for an ENFP than an INTP to try to plow through. That sort of highly-focused work is just not for everyone, and certainly not for me.

...although, for how much I'm enjoying this semester so far, grad work in computer science doesn't seem too far out of the question

Posted By yasamin on 16 Jan 2010 08:39 PM

I wanted to ask if there's anyone here who's doing a phD or pursuing a career in science that may have interesting insights to share. I am currently in the end of my second year in a biochemistry program and i am worried that i might have chosen the wrong career for me and i might even be considering leaving with a masters. Even though i am interested in science (but again i am interested in lots of other things...typical ENFP!) and although i like the theory and feeling i might contribute to knowledge that might benefit humanity; the lifestyle of doing research in the lab is not best suited for an ENFP in my opinion! Little interaction, detailed repetitive tasks, lots of technicality and rules and no life even working on weekends with little free time to pursue other interests, long-term commitment, etc. Anyone had a similar experience or has any advice for me? Can you have a successful career in science and still be an ENFP?   

heheh where did all the ENFP's go?!

[Warning: pretty long response ahead]

Well..I'm not even sure you'll see this considering it's been over a month since you asked, but I know an ENFP who went through a very similar situation. Let’s just say, it was not pretty. I read that under stress, ENFP’s are like a negative version of ISTJ’s:

Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ENFP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ISTJ. Example characteristics are:
• being pedantic about unimportant details
• doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
• being critical of others, and finding fault with almost everything
• taking charge without consideration to others
• May have great difficulty saying “no”
• May become rigidly non-conforming
• May feel very trapped in confusion
• Under extreme stress they may forget to eat, to sleep, have accidents
• May withdraw with out of proportion expressions of analytical criticism
• May have out of proportion compulsions focused on non-relevant details

Having said that, a life-work balance is important. But to her (ENFP studying for a PhD in Science) the balance meant extreeeme partying at times, nitpicking about the tiniest details, and projecting all her internal struggles onto other people as if it was something they did that was causing her to be unhappy, and therefore she would be happier if THEY changed instead of her. We were all left thinking, “W.T.F!?!” Lucky for her, the rest of us were good enough friends to put her in her place

And my experience wasn't in the Sciences, but it was highly analytical, detail oriented, routine at times, and filled with mean/angry people. I left. BEST decision - for me! But I was at a crossroads and was capable of doing so. If I were halfway thru a PhD program, the risk/loss would be much greater.

However, that isn’t to say there wouldn’t have been a great loss of all my previous experience as well. I’d love to pick up something more in line with my “dreams”, but let’s face it - ENFP’s have tons of dreams! (And really - at this point in my life, how likely is it that I’ll win SYTYCD?) So into deeeep reflection I went. This was HARD. Instead of asking everyone else, I had to get away from all my family/friends to be alone and figure out for myself, by myself, what I wanted, what would fit, and what I was willing to compromise (extroverted vs. introverted thinking?).

Personal conclusion? I’m actually going back to the industry I left but in a completely different capacity. That way, I won’t have to give up all my experience, I’ll have more flexibility/less routine, pick up new skills, and meet tons of different people. I’d hate to start back at square one.

So..is there really no other option besides leaving the program vs. finishing into a life of stifling lab research? Perhaps you could do that for a couple years to gain the practical knowledge, then become director of a lab or something..or a Biochem Consultant to the gov’t (did I make that up?)..or take a cosmetology class on the side, then use your chem knowledge and apply it to making makeup! I think you get the drift.

Try to remember why you started this path in the first place, and go from there. And side hobbies are always a good way to get the -FP side activated and to escape to when you’re feeling stressed. I love yoga and can’t wait to start dancing classes again!

Any ENFP who can finish and see things through to the end is very powerful...you’re almost there, no need to lose hope...create your own possibilities!

Hope this helps...someone

Just had another thought - one of the difficulties of my previous position was that most people thought in a linear way (AB to result YZ), whereas my thoughts were all over the map (AB oh look FG JK ST Heeeeey to the same result YZ). It would depress me because I was made to feel I was wrong because I was different. But the beauty in this was that I saw all the other combos/possibilities and already figured out what may/may not work (and in the same amount of time usually as the AB to YZ'ers). My boss was threatened because I was way faster at connecting things than her which made work that much worse (totally another story).

Anyway, the point in this is - embrace your differences because chances are, in the end, it will only help open the door for more opportunities. An ENFP with the proper encouragement, resources, and training is unstoppable!

[and now I feel I've used enough T to light up a really big christmas tree..imma go back to the childhood movies thread ]

Thank you Ashla your comment was really helpful. I have actually already received my masters and plan on getting some work experience before I decide if I want to ever go back to grad school in a different related field...lot's of thinking ahead! wish me luck

I just joined. I don't know whether you'll even see this since your thread is pretty old now, but it's worth a shot.

I have a PhD (completed MANY years ago) and am way into an academic career now in a business school setting. Even though my PhD is not in science, it is in a field that, as I have learned the hard way, draws mostly INTJs, ENTJs, ISTJs  and ESTJs to get PhDs, NOT ENFPs or even ENTPs.

As an ENFP/ENTP, I have found more difficulty than satisfaction in my career as a professor and researcher. So many years in, I am at a looking back point and can offer some constructive criticism of myself and advice to my younger self that might be useful to you:

Although it can be interesting to be the 'odd' one in a group, I haven't found it very useful at work. My students are mostly SJs, with a few NTs and SPs in the mix. When I have come across other NFs, it was obvious because, they, like I, stand out like a sore thumb. I have learned to adjust my teaching style for much more an SJ appeal, but it hasn't been fun for me.

Academic careers are person-to-person competitive. My ENFP self is not particularly competitive except on a team or with myself. If I could do it all over again, I would focus more on research teaming rather than alone on a stream of research, and I would be sure to put my ideas in writing in as much detail as possible as quickly as possible rather than talk about them in general with colleagues. I have found that my ideas, in general, must turn out to be pretty good in others' view because they have often been absorbed by my colleagues as their own (not that I think this was done on purpose).

A lot of the problems I caused for myself (that I wish I could undo) through the years were due to a few key ENFP  weaknesses:

Procrastination - Academics don't get managed closely as a general rule. You have to organize yourself and keep yourself on course.

Being more interested/fascinated by the interpersonal drama than by my research - Just a big no-no all the way round.

Taking criticism too hard and too personally - If I were to criticize as harshly as my colleagues do, I really would mean it to be taken hard and personally, but my colleagues aren't like me and they mostly are just being 1) honest and impersonal and/or 2) arrogant (an INTJ-ENTJ weakness).

All this being said, it has been a character-building experience to get a PhD in business and work closely with a lot of SJs and NTJs, but it has not been fun much of the time. Given ENFPs love to have fun -- even in our work -- the lack of fun and excitement in my career has been energy draining.

If you go ahead with the PhD in science, look at it as a character-building opportunity from the start. Allow yourself times to be silly and keep fun friends nearby. Be vigilant against your own character weaknesses as they are almost sure to pop up around the abundance of NTs you'll encounter on a daily basis. 

 

  

 

 

This thread might be dead, but I'll weigh in. I'm decidedly ENFP and am in the 5th year of my phd program (my focus is geology - specifically in geochemistry).

Almost everything that enfplori wrote resonated for me. I definitely feel like the 'odd man out' - and its actually a lot more distressing and difficult for me than I ever thought it would be. In fact, the things that have been most difficult in my grad career were not the things I had expected at all - one of them has been constantly feeling like I just don't fit in with any of my peers.

The competitve issue is a big one too, and I just see it looming ever more in the future - by which I mean it is only going to get worse if I continue on and have to fight for dwindling NSF research funding. I also have a tendency to give away ideas. And while its flattering that other people seem to pick them up and run with them (it means, I hope, that they're good ideas), its also kind of frustrating to feel like I'm giving away all the good stuff.

I've been working on the same projects for basically 4 years now. One of them took 3 years to develope and I am only now collecting the data that I hope will comprise a paper or two and my thesis. Focusing on a single problem for such a long time has been one of the most difficult things I've ever done with my life, and I'm even now fighting really really hard to finish it. My wife charitably says I have a lot of patience. I call it stubbornness. I've come this far; I'm darn well gonna finish it.

The other thing I have found really difficult has been separating my self-worth from my work. Which means - for me - that when my work isn't going well (which is most of the time - I think this is just the way it is when you're doing research), I start to get depressed. It took a lot of work for me to realize that my inability to get the quality of data I wanted wasn't a reflection on me personally and my worth as a researcher or as a human being.

All this sounds kind of dire, but your mileage may vary - I think I made it harder for myself because I wanted to work on really individual, difficult, new problems, which means that I'm basically the only one in my research group working on the stuff that I am tackling.

I think that enfplori has good suggestions. ENFPs can be silly, and I am definitely given to the silliness. One very important conclusion I have reached is that you can be silly and still do excellent work. You have fun but still be absolutely commited to the highest calibre of your research. I think this is something that other types (like NTJs) you'll commonly meet in academia may not really understand at first, but they will likely respect the quality of your research. At least the mature ones will. I also think its absolutely critical to have outside friends. And I think working as part of a team might be really good as well; being able to discuss the research with other people is one part of the job that I (predictably) really like.

That said, I'm not likely to continue in academia - I'm almost certainly going to finish the phd and then get out and go do something that's maybe not quite so... 'character-forming.'

Better question: can we pursue a career in science and still be human beings? The answer, sadly, is no. I can relate-- a Ph.D. in physics sounded sexy when I went back to school, but I did not continue after I earned my Bachelor's, disillusioned with the idea. I would rather work to live than live to work.

The catch-- you'll need to devise and implement a realistic contingency plan if you stop half-way, and that may amount to more sweat in the short term. Science isn't something that goes very far in the business world.

Bahahaa.. I love you JHBowden! You are such an ENTJ!!! .. I love ENTJs by the way! They are awesome!!!

I was considering a PhD in philosophy and psychology.. but.. Not sure how that will go.. At this present stage in time, I don't think it's necessary..

Late the game....but I thought I'd add my two cents.

I got my BS in Biology and planned on getting my PhD in genetics. Thankfully....I did so bad on the GRE that I was waitlisted for the program I wanted and the director brought me down to the university/medical center to work in a lab for a year and take the classes in the program before moving into it. I LOVE biology, science, genetics, research. I really do. But after working for a year in a lab as a mouse tech (I had interned for year in college in a lab and had an amazing experience...but that's another story), I realized that the people that were most prevalent in research were not ENFPs. The only Es I ever met were psychotic ESTJs (my boss - who would threaten me and insult me and make me cry).

I spent 4 hours a day in an isolation room with 5,000 (YES, FIVE THOUSAND) mice. The other 4 hours of the day I spent sitting at a bench doing the EXACT SAME THING, over and over again. I did what's called PCR (polymerase chain reaction) to determine genotypes of my mice. It was the exact same process except changing what gene I was testing and where it appeared on the gel. I would get excited when my PCRs stopped working because it was a problem, a challenge, and something that was not so monotonous that I wanted to shoot myself.

I also realized that going into a career like biomedical research that was uber-competitve, and that in order to be a female in research you more than likely had to be like my ex-boss in order to be successful and get NIH grants, which are few and far between and the competition is cut-throat. I'm a competitive person by nature, I think that's a first-born child thing, but I'm not like those people. I couldn't be cruel and heartless to succeed.

After a year I quit (unfortunately I quit in July 2008...had I known what was going to happen in a few short months I may not have made such an impulsive decision), and decided I needed to find a career/graduate program that allowed me to keep my options open. I ended up going and getting my Masters in Library and Information Science and I'm currently looking for a career position in a medical/health sciences academic library. It's the absolute perfect solution and brings together everything that I enjoy....science/biology/medicine, research, teaching, and people. While librarians are typically more introverted in general, I've found that without the competitive nature it's much more pleasant. Some librarians find me too much. I'm loud, talkative, and silly. But for the most part it's a great environment for me. I interact with people every day, I can pass along my knowledge to students and faculty and clinicians.

With that being said...part of me still misses the learning. And I know that once I land an academic position I'm going to go back and get a second Masters in genetics or bioinformatics or public health or another area that I find fascinating. The problem I find for me, is that being an ENFP I can't pick just one area of interest!!! I want to learn everything, but I don't necessarily want the time or depth of a PhD in specific area.

Lindzmarie85 my story was in fact very similar to yours and enfplori all the things you described amazingly are exactly what i felt during grad school..I too feel in love with biology and the biomedical field in general in my undergrad however after working alone in the lab for two years growing gross bacterial cultures in a cold room I have decided I had enough!..on top of that my advisor too was a psychotic moody, tempered ESTJ women who made me cry tons of times and who i thought was a crazy woman but strangely successful in getting grants as is obviously the case for this personality with women to survive in such a competitive field. She also had a reputation for being especially tough on girls in accordance with her ideology of producing strong (or psycho after 5 years if you ask me!) female scientists which almost meant going through an emotional boot camp drained with gossiping and back-stabbing in the lab which was not very supportive for an ENFP..

I am pretty much in the same place like you now except after getting my masters in biochemistry I am teaching chemistry however I miss the knowledge and unlike other ENFPs even though I think teachng could be sometimes enjoyable it's very monotonous, with no challenges or career advancement and becomes repetitive (no change=bad for ENFP) after sometime so I definitely do see my self changing careers or going back to get another masters. But like you I have a problem deciding because of so many interests! I was leaning towards nutrition or public health the most however I am afraid of the statistics involved and so am afraid it's too S for an abstract N person like me...so I am back to square one but if anyone is out there like me feelng lost I recommend books like alternative careers in science, leaving the ivory tower which has listings of non-bench jobs sich as library science like you describe.

Now that I see this I think MBTI should be made mandatory in high-school ! Definitely interest is not enough but personality traits as well is crucial in choosing a field to spare the heartache..

To all of the ENFPs who are considering a PhD:

Save yourself the heartbreak, and consider doing (any) other route. The PhD route rewards meticulous introverts who can do repetious, exact science, and love reading tons of boring papers. Even people who are not ENFPs have trouble going thru the painfully long political process. Are you willing to go thru something meticulous for 4-6 years where you are demoted for wanting to interact with people or be creative?

Learn from my mistake *trying* to get my PhD as an nondetail oriented ENFP. I am 4 years into a potentially 5-6 year PhD program, and am hating having a micromanaging, ISTJ female advisor who seems to treat females (ie me) worse than males.  Receiving yet another nasty email from her spurred on a new (monthly or weekly) breakdown.  During my pity party, I lamented the fact that for the past 10 years, I have signed up for jobs that were uncreative, and meaningless, just to earn the most money I could.  I further was sad that I was urged to go down the PhD path from my parents who believe that no one has a personality, that one just gravitates towards a "sensible job as an academic where you get summers off"

However, after googling personality this AM, I rediscovered that my personality is still an ENFP, and my inabilty to survive this type of meticulous program made SENSE.  So while personality theorists believe personality can change over time, I still am an ENFP, even after my original test(s) 10 years ago, and even after taking logic and quantitative (thinking and judging) classes in the PhD program.  It felt great to realize there may be an explanation why I am easily depressed as a PhD student of a micromanaging ISTJ advisor. 

Due to my depression, I have had significant mood swings, I feel I am not good at anything, and I am a pain to be around.  I need to reread an inspiration sheet every morning to convince myself to go on in the program, because I fear letting my parents down and the time invested. I am a year away from potentially completing it, so I have to keep on reading this sheet of paper to urge me on ("other people have it worse than you...")

But really, I should follow the advice I'm giving you - Life is short. You can accomplish MANY things without needing a PhD. Many ENFPs want to change the world, and the academic life is not a great way to go about that.

Those of you who quit already, congratulations. Those who completed and feel it built character, that's an interesting though, and i hope it will be one of the items that helps me get up in the AM. 

-E

 

Hmm, do you think this is true of all PhD and ENFP combos, or just science? What about more ENFPish subjects like counseling or sociology?

I'd imagine that the number of Fs in ENFP subjects like counseling or sociology would be quite a bit higher so the difficulty in finding professors and/or advisors who could relate would be much easier and much less stressful. Personally, I think that diversity and value of individuals in that field that are relatable (to a creature that cherishes connections like an ENFP, especially) might like it more, and feel more inclined to stay involved in it as a result. But it's just a theory.

Magical studies = Higher value of F test cases
Ancient Runes = Higher value of T test cases
Muggle studies = Higher value of F test cases

Fyi, I think it's about time for me to re-read Harry Potter. I know it's time when it becomes a random part of my daily dialogue...