I have a brother that is INTJ.  He has a very wackadoo sense of justice that surfaces every so often and affects me in some way.  Lately, he moved my car out of his so called parking spot without my permission with a copy of my car key that I did not know that he had.  When I confronted him on the issue and expressed how violated I felt, he was completely unrepentant, refused to relinquish my car key, and told me that it was just like if the city towed my car because it was parked somewhere wrong.  Pointing out that the city has authority over me that he does not have did not help at all.  

How are you supposed to deal with this?  Do you INTJs have any sympathy for my brother?  Sometimes my brother has these deep convictions about "justice" that are completely illogical and there is no getting through to him.  Suggestions?  

Well if someone is playing chess you can't beat them by playing scrabble. Try turning the table on him with his own tactics ( all with good humour of course)

Ahhhh the good old INTJ moral high ground, the one thing that stands in the way between the ENFP and the INTJ.

Yeah, my best friend was/is the same way. We rented a place together and the first thing he did was impose a bunch of "rules". He was a neat-freak (most intjs are) and demanded that we all be neat freaks as well (good luck with two ENFPs living with you....)

Rewinding the story a bit, when were searching for an apartment together, he took the initiative and found a good place (I pretty much didn't care where we lived as long as I had a toilet and an internet connection - typical ENFP needs ) and when he called me to tell me, I said ok, when and where do you need me to come and cosign for the place. He responded with he trusted me, so it was no big deal, he already signed the contract in his name only - little did I know he did this on purpose - INTJs are control freaks to the max level.

Fast forward a couple of months. He starts trying to rule his castle with an iron fist, demanding that we do things his way - which was really nonsensical - way too perfectionistic, neat freak Nazism. When I declined to do so, he informed me that the house was in his name, so I had no say (even though we all paid equal rent). This puffy shoulder nonsense went on for a bit longer until finally I exploded, told him ok bud, I guess I am finding a new place, have fun finding a new roommate, then I started packing. We had a little bit of standoff for a while, neither person budging, and then finally, at the last minute after I had found a place, he broke down and apologized. I never heard another peep about his cleanliness tyranny. He learned to ask nicely for me to pick up after myself, and respected my space. Better yet, sometimes he would even clean up after me! It was heaven.

Point is, INTJs like to act dominate, but they are no mach for ENFPs - we are THE DOMINATE of all dominate personalities. Don't F#$% with us. Our resolve is greater than yours. We may seem all down to earth, kicked back, and relaxed - which we usually are, but when you start to encroach upon our personal space, like moving our cars because you have this snotty "justice" about so called "your parking spaces"  or other nonsense, that’s when our seeming "chill" passive temperaments fade away, and you awake the sleeping dragon that all ENFPs possess.

My advice, push back. Fight fire with fire. My guess is he is really a push-over, abusing the scenario because he thinks he can. As long as you condition him to get away with his obnoxious behavior, he will continue to behave as such. When push comes to shove, most INTJs will back down. They tend to avoid greater conflict.

Haha. I love that he moved your car.

But seriously, he shouldn't have a copy of your car key without you knowing. Mobocracy is right. Just confront him and be strong in your convictions. We generally will back down because it makes much more sense to do so and we often respect a person willing to fight for themselves than otherwise. So, stand your ground. Be firm. Let him know you won't budge, and I'm pretty sure he will relent. It might take him a little bit of time, but eventually he will relent.

I think it is so much easier for ENFPs to retain a firm stance like this longer than an INTJ simply because ENFPs generally have far more distractions.  We INTJs just tend to stew on it and then relent that maybe our stance was wrong and that we should concede.

Point is, INTJs like to act dominate, but they are no mach for ENFPs - we are THE DOMINATE of all dominate personalities. Don't F#$% with us. Our resolve is greater than yours. We may seem all down to earth, kicked back, and relaxed - which we usually are, but when you start to encroach upon our personal space, like moving our cars because you have this snotty "justice" about so called "your parking spaces"  or other nonsense, that’s when our seeming "chill" passive temperaments fade away, and you awake the sleeping dragon that all ENFPs possess

And here I thought it was a sibling thing and not MBTI .

I'm a little touchy on the subject because my car and my computer are what I need to feel in control. ENFPs can be territorial when it comes to encroaching on our need for personal freedom.

And here I thought it was a sibling thing and not MBTI .

So tell me if I got this right

1. You had an agreement that it was his spot

2. You parked on his spot, by accident

3. He asked you to move

4. You said no, thus going back on your agreement with him

5. He gave you the option of moving or that he would do it for you

6. You again declined to do so, or allowing him to do it for you

7. Subsequently calling his bluff and you lost out

8. Then running to your dad to tell on him for having done what he did and having a key you did not know about.

9. Now you feel violated because he (your brother)had something of you (the key) even though you took something from him(his spot)

10. And now he as an INTJ/brother has a weerd sense “justice”

Sibling rivalry

Hahaha. Nadette I find the whole thing really interesting.

But on a serious note, I find it regrettable that siblings don't trust each other with things that are important to them (even if the other doesn't know about it). So I personally don't think it is the key or "justice" that is at issue here, but whether you trust your brother and he can trust you.Hope it works out

Meh, Stripes, I think Nadette has a valid point here and it does have to do more with the INTJ than specific sibling rivalry, because as I stated before, I have had this sort of run in with virtually every one of my INTJ friends. I could go on and on and on about similar stories (literally on and on and on - ENFP storyteller here) that have happened between me and my long friendship with my INTJ best friend. I don't think the INTJ does it maliciously persay, I think it has more to do with the INTJs extreme lack of external emotional understanding of others. I have had to accept this with my friend. He literally is clueless sometimes about how and more importantly WHY I feel strongly about something, especially personal space and percieved being "controlled" by others. We ENFPs cannot stand being controlled, even if to you it may seem silly or "we brought it upon ourselves." A little respect is all we ask for. Thankfully, over the years, my friend has learned the hard way that most of this issues are not worth fighting me over, because I will take it to the bitter end rather than yield my independence.

I don't think the INTJ does it maliciously persay, I think it has more to do with the INTJs extreme lack of external emotional understanding of others

This is a valid point. While Psyko is right that INTJs can be pretty creative/resourceful, I do think that the more an INTJ matures, the more he or she ultimately becomes more INFJ because Fi will only get you so far in terms of interacting with others. I wonder if it might have to do with Ni intuiting the feelings of others over time and compensating to be able to infer feelings better/develop Fe (or what ends up resembling Fe but is, instead, a more developed sense of Fi).

Stripes - Bahahahaha, I love the kitty! Yeah, I mean it would be great if I could just trust everybody. I hope that my brother and I grow closer with time. I feel like people tell me that I need to trust more a lot, but my lack of trust is for a reason.

He literally is clueless sometimes about how and more importantly WHY I feel strongly about something, especially personal space and percieved being "controlled" by others. We ENFPs cannot stand being controlled, even if to you it may seem silly or "we brought it upon ourselves." A little respect is all we ask for. Thankfully, over the years, my friend has learned the hard way that most of this issues are not worth fighting me over, because I will take it to the bitter end rather than yield my independence.

Yep, exactly. I can be very stubborn and I will not be controlled or manipulated.

NFs do the emotional blackmail: 'You have wronged me and hurt my feelings and I will never forgive you' kind of thing.

Um, this isn't blackmail, it is the truth. What is wrong with this? Seriously, all you NTs need to do is acknowledge our hurt, apologize, and .....basically act like you care and want to make things better. Respect. NFs might be a little melodramatic at times, but that is just our vital need for expression. NTs don't express very much at all. Anyways, my point is that our overwhelming expression is usually very easily soothed. I mean, we are just dying to forgive you! Trust me!

Also, everything is fine.  I have the key now.  He never apologized, but he very amicably shared the latest in his job search with me (big stuff!)  I am fully aware that his big, scary INTJ act is a lot of bluster.  

I have been taught a really valuable lesson recently that would have saved a lot of my emotional energy in the past. Look at the situation. Ask the questions, "What do I stand to gain from this? What do I stand to lose?" Weigh both and pick the most beneficial to you. Using this system you could ask yourself, "What do I gain by not moving my car? What do I stand to lose?" I personally would answer these questions with, "I gain .25 in gas and 5 minutes of my time. I may lose trust with my brother and hurt his feelings because it seems important to him." Personally I would move the car.

Posted By Stripes on 15 Jun 2011 05:02 AM

 

So tell me if I got this right

1. You had an agreement that it was his spot

2. You parked on his spot, by accident

3. He asked you to move

4. You said no, thus going back on your agreement with him

5. He gave you the option of moving or that he would do it for you

6. You again declined to do so, or allowing him to do it for you

7. Subsequently calling his bluff and you lost out

8. Then running to your dad to tell on him for having done what he did and having a key you did not know about.

9. Now you feel violated because he (your brother)had something of you (the key) even though you took something from him(his spot)

10. And now he as an INTJ/brother has a weerd sense “justice”

Sibling rivalry

I like the above post.  Yes, I would also have moved the car.

I would also have simply ignored the complaints from the dad; attempted mediation is usually the sign of someone failing to understand their own motivations and wanting someone else to intervene to protect the ego position.  Bad form and generally a sign of a lack of self-thought regarding what they actually want; how they want it and how they plan to get it.

I recommend if you are 'uncomfortable' with your key distribution then you re-evaluate your key security!

Go back on agreement with INTJ = consequences.  You'll get over it. 

I saw earlier the well documented ENFP - You don't want to anger us - statement.  The answer from the INTJ, as ever, is:  So what?  Are you stupid enough to anger us?

To an NTJ their word is their bond; they will follow through on everything they say they will do unless prevented from doing so; it is useful to bear that in mind when dealing with us.