Ok folks, I'm a little bit pissed off. Allright allright, there is no such a thing as "a little pissed off" there is always "I'm pissed off BIG time". Well you get the picture.

Here's the deal.

I was talking to my dad over skype. He's in different country right now (don't ask which) and we kind of do business together (family business). And something that he said pissed me off. While I was in my rage, it made me think. I finally decided to share that with you and see how you perceive things like that.

I am kind of guy who gets in contact with people and asks or talks nothing else but business. I don't get into other topics as I think getting in them simply complicates matter even further which I don't think I can afford right now. So, there is one woman whom I can't seemingly reach for the last couple of days. I was expecting a phone call from her, so I wondered what's going on. 2 days, no calls, even no return to my calls. Anyway, I don't really like speculating on possible scenarios. So, here comes my dad and blames me for not being friendly with people. Not friendly? He means my "business only" approach. So what he expects me to do, is to go along with whatever they say ... or simply put.... act like a clown around them....kind of entertain them....and somehow hope that things turn out for the better. Of course that completely espaces my understanding and getting blamed for things that I don't understand is not something that I take lightly.

What the hell am I supposed to do? I am not getting into these petty things simply because I try to avoid complications....and still yet...the complications find means to come and bite me in the a$$. Wtf? Is there any hidden "rule" that clowns get ahead? For some very complicated reasons I suspect they do. I think there are alot of people who use that to get higher corporate positions. Higher salaries. And higher "seemingly" respect. But whenever someone injects a little dose of reality into that "scheme" it all falls on the ground like a house of poker cards. What's going on?

Entjay, IMHO the reason why, as you put it, clowns get ahead, is simply because (un)fortunately as human beings we are subjective by nature. It's always the case in any field that people who don't deserve promotions or who are less-qualified end up getting the job/upgrade over others. The old saying "it's who you know not what you know" rings true. And the thing about that (networking) is that it all boils down to likability. It's a proven fact that people who are more likable are more likely to get the job and/or get promoted. I don't think that being likable and being a conversationalist equates to being a clown.

And while I get that you're a realist and are strictly business, in relationships this tends to be a turnoff both personal and in business. People crave to find similarities and connections with others, and you can't get that without at least drifting off the road a bit and talking about non-business matters. You don't have to recount in vivid detail your weekend, but a simple question about how they are doing or how their weekend/day was/is can be such an ice-breaker. Relating to others on a deeper level is imperative for both personal and professional relationships, and it seems that you have completely closed yourself off to others.

Your dad saying you're not friendly might sound harsh, but maybe you need to really rethink how you relate to others and how the perceive you. Being friendly doesn't mean you have to act like a clown....though for some types ::cough cough:: this seems often to be the case. You may not see your behavior as being unfriendly - I'm sure you're not intentionally being unfriendly. It's just that you come across that way if you aren't able to loosen up a bit.

Maybe you just need to be bitten by an ENFP 

Wouldn't it be just easier, quicker and more convenient to deal with whatever business I have (which usually takes no more than 1 minute) and return to their own routine instead of listening to something that I have no interest, no talent and no idea about?

They probably would very easily see me faking something and I am afraid that would complicate things much deeper.

The woman is pathetic in a sense that she's forced to do things all herself and she basically works her ass off. I mean who would want that kind of life that she has? Hardworking mom who barely gets enough sleep at home and who tries to look after her kid...I mean what about her is so likable? If she was some kind of achiever that at least provide alot of resources to the people around her and she's on something that is very useful, I would greatly find her likable.

Posted By Nadette on 05 Jan 2012 04:34 PM

They probably would very easily see me faking something and I am afraid that would complicate things much deeper.

What if you actually took a real interest in them? What if you just really cared? People can be annoying sometimes, but they are still people that need to be loved and appreciated. Life isn't all about business.

Let's look at this from different perspective. Shouldn't people engage in activities that actually make them likeable? I understand that people want recognition. Acceptance. I have no problem with that. But recognition and acceptance is given for a reason. Not because they are human beings. Besides, you may disagree. I understand that too. But why would someone recognise and put them in special place if the only thing they do is becoming the part of pile of flesh that lived before them and did nothing too? What is the difference and addition do these people provide to deserve such recognition? What are they distinguished by? I'm not really saying that they have to accomplish something in order to be recognized. But at least they can try?

Posted By Nadette on 05 Jan 2012 04:34 PM

The woman is pathetic in a sense that she's forced to do things all herself and she basically works her ass off. I mean who would want that kind of life that she has? Hardworking mom who barely gets enough sleep at home and who tries to look after her kid...I mean what about her is so likable? If she was some kind of achiever that at least provide alot of resources to the people around her and she's on something that is very useful, I would greatly find her likable.

I'm confused here. Are you saying you don't respect this woman because she has a tough life situation?

Damn it. I just wrote a perfect reply to this question and for some damn reason the system just crashed. And I lost my long written text on this. I don't think I have patience enough to rewrite it here again. Let's just say that I don't like people who get into misery by their own mistakes that they could avoid. And that I have no problem with people experiencing hardness in life due to circumstances outside of their control or because they couldnt anticipiate it coming.

Most of them are not about telling nice things. And I honestly don't believe saying "not nice" things here will lead anywhere.

You said that people find nothing else to do. I don't really know if this is the truth or not. Because I cannot identify with that.

I personally find alot of things to do. In fact, too many things to do. And I can't see how people cannot do that as well?

Posted By lindzmarie85 on 06 Jan 2012 12:11 PM

Most of them are not about telling nice things. And I honestly don't believe saying "not nice" things here will lead anywhere.

First off, agreed, you won't get anywhere saying nasty things here - especially when the evidence to back them up is convoluted. We ENFPs try to understand others by stepping in their shoes, and you seem to just berate a person for having worn shoes in the first place.

I think I better skip on commenting on that.

Posted By lindzmarie85 on 06 Jan 2012 12:11 PM

You said that people find nothing else to do. I don't really know if this is the truth or not. Because I cannot identify with that.

Just because you personally can't identify with something does that make it wrong??

I think it's more complicated than that. Imagine someone sitting under apple tree, and then complaining for getting hit by the falling down apple. It could have seen perfectly okay if the person didn't complain about it. But since he does, then there is something "wrong" with that. Isn't it? Besides, I would also have a second opinion on that. Why would someone sit under apple tree if I already know that getting hit by a falling down apple hurts? So, it's some sort of combination of both so to speak.

Posted By lindzmarie85 on 06 Jan 2012 12:11 PM


I think what Nadette meant is that for many individuals they either lack the intelligence and/or education to make informed decisions or succeed as you see fit in this world. You might be surprised to learn that there is a significant portion of society that does not have access to adequate healthcare, including birth control. And do not have the intellectual capabilities to understand that unprotected sex is going to lead to children that they can't afford to support and do not have the support system/spouse to help raise that child(ren). It's a vicious cycle.

How do you expect me to deal with that?

Posted By lindzmarie85 on 06 Jan 2012 12:11 PM


I get the idea that you're very much the white middle class suburban male - you're "average" person. You likely have never spent time in an environment that deviates far from your own. I think if you had you would be more compassionate towards others in unfortunate circumstances, and realize that there if often very much more to them and their stories, and making harsh judgements about who they are and how they got there is misdirected. For example, here in NYC there was a homeless man who lived on the Upper West Side some time ago. Everyone knew who he was but paid little attention to him (as many New Yorkers are prone to by the nature of living in a city of 8.5 million). Shortly after he passed away one of the local institutions was given a large donation. When people in the neighborhood asked about where the money came from, they were shocked to learn that it was entire life savings of the homeless man that they all disregarded. Why he chose to live on the streets when he had significant amounts of money to his name is something that perhaps only he could have answered. But the point of my story is that you can't judge a book by its cover and often things and not only more than they seem, but completely different than they appear. And criticizing someone whom you only know superficially...well, it's just wrong. It's unfair to those people. But it's also unfair to you, because it further pushes you to continue on in this mindset.

Thank you for your insight. I belive what you say "judging by their look", I think I do that. I mean, I do judge by how things look. And to be perfectly honest, I do think that is not wrong. Maybe it is some kind of ignorance on my part. Maybe it is just easier for me to do this way. Maybe because that is the best I can do at that point of time. I don't really know why it happens this way. But there is something interesting about it. You see, more often that I am not, I am right. It might be hard to belive, but I do end up being right. Then how can I ignore that? I don't say that it is some kind of simple process. There is very complicated thinking process. But it surprisingly turns out to be right. Perhaps someone else would say "gut feeling". I think it could be qualified like that. Perhaps even like saying "educated guess". But it is more than that. It's more than just a guess. You would say a guessing person has doubts about whether someone is right or not. I don't. I exactly know that if things have progressed the way I think, it would work. It just does. Very simply as that. It's like sitting on your car and driving from point A to pont B. And it works all the time. Then, how can I ignore that?

Look maybe you are right. Maybe this is my limitation. I am not sure. Maybe I have tendency on jumping on conclusions. Maybe I want quick solutions. And since I have one in my mind and don't see it in action, it just frusturates me the hell out. Some things are so easy to accomplish, that I just want to cut the conversation even before it ends. It's hard to tolerate that. Maybe I just pass my judgements to make people shut up. I don't want to hear them. I don't want to listen to them. Why? Well simply because there is no gain for me in that. I gain nothing by listening to them. It's a waste of time for me. I do realize that these people are useless. They are just like you said are in vicious cycle and I perfectly realize that they wont be able to get out of there. And I also perfectly realize that people won't do what I say, then what's there left for me to listen to them? And what is the point of showing compassion at this point. I might pass my compassion to these people and yet tomorrow they will make the same mistake again. And I would end up wasting my breath today. I think I just found the best way of dealing with them. I just say "your business is yours, mine is mine". Why am I here? It's for our mutual business. Let's get it done and let's get the hell out of here. You live your own life (however misery it is in my opinion, and I won't even let you know what my opinion is) and I live mine. And that's the end of it. Do I like this? Of course no. But what can I do? My solution is there. Nobody wants to do it. Then why should I waste my breath? I can't pick fight with everyone? That impossible. So I have to pick my fights with those who can.

Besides, I enjoy talking to you. At least I understand that there is something out there that knows what she talks about.

Posted By Entejay on 06 Jan 2012 01:35 PM

Thank you for your insight. I belive what you say "judging by their look", I think I do that. I mean, I do judge by how things look. And to be perfectly honest, I do think that is not wrong. Maybe it is some kind of ignorance on my part. Maybe it is just easier for me to do this way. Maybe because that is the best I can do at that point of time. I don't really know why it happens this way. But there is something interesting about it. You see, more often that I am not, I am right. It might be hard to belive, but I do end up being right. Then how can I ignore that? I don't say that it is some kind of simple process. There is very complicated thinking process. But it surprisingly turns out to be right. Perhaps someone else would say "gut feeling". I think it could be qualified like that. Perhaps even like saying "educated guess". But it is more than that. It's more than just a guess. You would say a guessing person has doubts about whether someone is right or not. I don't. I exactly know that if things have progressed the way I think, it would work. It just does. Very simply as that. It's like sitting on your car and driving from point A to pont B. And it works all the time. Then, how can I ignore that?

Look maybe you are right. Maybe this is my limitation. I am not sure. Maybe I have tendency on jumping on conclusions. Maybe I want quick solutions. And since I have one in my mind and don't see it in action, it just frusturates me the hell out. Some things are so easy to accomplish, that I just want to cut the conversation even before it ends. It's hard to tolerate that. Maybe I just pass my judgements to make people shut up. I don't want to hear them. I don't want to listen to them. Why? Well simply because there is no gain for me in that. I gain nothing by listening to them. It's a waste of time for me. I do realize that these people are useless. They are just like you said are in vicious cycle and I perfectly realize that they wont be able to get out of there. And I also perfectly realize that people won't do what I say, then what's there left for me to listen to them? And what is the point of showing compassion at this point. I might pass my compassion to these people and yet tomorrow they will make the same mistake again. And I would end up wasting my breath today. I think I just found the best way of dealing with them. I just say "your business is yours, mine is mine". Why am I here? It's for our mutual business. Let's get it done and let's get the hell out of here. You live your own life (however misery it is in my opinion, and I won't even let you know what my opinion is) and I live mine. And that's the end of it. Do I like this? Of course no. But what can I do? My solution is there. Nobody wants to do it. Then why should I waste my breath? I can't pick fight with everyone? That impossible. So I have to pick my fights with those who can.

Besides, I enjoy talking to you. At least I understand that there is something out there that knows what she talks about.

It's good that you realize that you do this, it's the first step in acknowledging that while you might not think it's wrong, it can potentially lead you to the wrong conclusions about people and situations.  I think if you are doing the best that you can at a given point then that's fine, but where I begin to have problems is when people cannot move past that and grow - and I hope that you by engaging with us here, you will grow.

Okay, maybe you are right more often than not - or at least based on your own values system.  It doesn't mean it's right for everyone.  It's the same as debating politics/religion/etc...everyone to their own.  You are running simply on classical conditioning.  You make judgements and when things in the end come out to support your conclusion it gives you further evidence to continue making such judgements.  We all do it - there is no way that we could process all the sights/sounds/smell/experiences we have on a daily basis without basing them off previous experiences.  But I don't think you can call it "gut feelings" as those are typically emotionally felt rather than rationally felt.

Ahh, quick solutions...I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.  You need efficiency in every aspect of your life - hence why you can't bother with small-talk and keep everything "strictly business".  Any deviation from that would be a waste of time.  But it does mean that you probably jump to conclusions.  And since you've already made your decision and have reached your end goal, you can't tolerate other people's opinions because it reminds you that they are light years behind you in their thinking process and to you that is as waste of time and if they'd just listen to you in the first place everything would be done faster.

The problem with this is that you assume that anyone who cannot think as fast as you is a useless idiot.  Jumping to conclusions again???

As for you assuming their lives are miserable because they aren't how you wish to live.  Again, this is passing judgement on others based on your own perceptions and values.  Perhaps this woman wanted nothing else in the world but to be a mother, despite her circumstances.  Does that make her a bad person, or a bad mother, because she chose a road that was more uphill than most?  Do you also look down on people who choose time-consuming educational fields such as doctors and researchers who spend upwards of 12 years post-collegiate in school?  Do you think that's a waste of time, money, and resources because they are not "productive members of society" until they are well into their 30s?  That same researcher may someday find the cure for cancer or AIDS.  Is it still a waste of time/money for s/he to take the time in school when s/he could be working straight out of college in another field?

Posted By lindzmarie85 on 06 Jan 2012 02:05 PM

Okay, maybe you are right more often than not - or at least based on your own values system.  It doesn't mean it's right for everyone.  It's the same as debating politics/religion/etc...everyone to their own.  You are running simply on classical conditioning.  You make judgements and when things in the end come out to support your conclusion it gives you further evidence to continue making such judgements.  We all do it - there is no way that we could process all the sights/sounds/smell/experiences we have on a daily basis without basing them off previous experiences.  But I don't think you can call it "gut feelings" as those are typically emotionally felt rather than rationally felt.

Ahh, quick solutions...I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.  You need efficiency in every aspect of your life - hence why you can't bother with small-talk and keep everything "strictly business".  Any deviation from that would be a waste of time.  But it does mean that you probably jump to conclusions.  And since you've already made your decision and have reached your end goal, you can't tolerate other people's opinions because it reminds you that they are light years behind you in their thinking process and to you that is as waste of time and if they'd just listen to you in the first place everything would be done faster.

The problem with this is that you assume that anyone who cannot think as fast as you is a useless idiot.  Jumping to conclusions again???

 

I think it is more than that. I think I do realize my limitations. Somehow. I do. But that is not something that stops me. No. I do not stop with that. I also have "self correcting" tendency. It's really interesting how it works. Whatever preconception I do have there, I also have the tendency of checking it out. And then comparing it with how I perceived it before and detect faulty loging in it and pass new form of judgement on it. I think you would call it empirical evidence. That's the way of expanding my "conditioning". Let me explain you how this works in real life. Let's say someone has a problem, but has no solution for that. Not even a remote one. Whereas I have some solution. It might look "not perfect" or some other form depending on your view on it. Isn't it? Now I want you to focus on this. If you have no solution and what I say is even somehow remotely possible, then doesn't it worth checking out? If we somehow check it out, we end up with some results. Good or bad, it doesn't matter. Now that we have a result, we also have eliminated a possibility from the pool of possibilities. We don't have to deal with that anymore. Now we have a more correct perception on that. It still may not be perfect. But that's one step towards the perfect one. Now tell me, which one is better? Doing nothing, or checking out something that might work? I think checking out worth it. And that is how it self corrects. Not just for me, but also for them. It doesn't matter what kind of background they have on this, the evidence will change them in such a way, that they will have to adapt. They will have to accept that. That is how solutions are created. Initial perceptions might be different. But the end perception would definitely be the same.

Perhaps this woman frusturates me even more by the fact that she not just have no perception of how she can fix it, but she also lacks the capability of trying a solution if such a possibility exist. And me on my side, I have no resources to try new solutions without her help or resources. It's a dead end. She's practically done. There is no point in making any conversations with her regarding her solutions, unless she finds resources to fix it or I find resources to fix it without her. Of course the second solution might not even look acceptable. People don't usually look at the solutions, but also how they are done. I might help her, but that wouldn't really look "ordinary" way of conducting business. Basically it is way beyound my interest in dealing with it.

Posted By lindzmarie85 on 06 Jan 2012 02:05 PM

As for you assuming their lives are miserable because they aren't how you wish to live.  Again, this is passing judgement on others based on your own perceptions and values.  Perhaps this woman wanted nothing else in the world but to be a mother, despite her circumstances.  Does that make her a bad person, or a bad mother, because she chose a road that was more uphill than most?  Do you also look down on people who choose time-consuming educational fields such as doctors and researchers who spend upwards of 12 years post-collegiate in school?  Do you think that's a waste of time, money, and resources because they are not "productive members of society" until they are well into their 30s?  That same researcher may someday find the cure for cancer or AIDS.  Is it still a waste of time/money for s/he to take the time in school when s/he could be working straight out of college in another field?

She might wanted to have a kid despite her limitations. But what if her limitations are the source of such a want from another person. Imagine her kid now. This kid will grow up in some limitations that her mother can't provide. And those limitations will also pave the ground for the next generation of limitations that her kid will experience both for himself and his kids. Perhaps the mother of this woman also had similar kind of "limitations" that resulted in this womans poor financial, educational (whatever the reason is, basically she cannot handle the reality) difficutlities. Can you see the patterns here? I think this is crazy. Entire generations are destroyed simply because nobody has balls enough to take the responsibility and set the business straight. This is crazy I say this again. It's irresponsibility towards oneself. And I'm not even mentioning the other things which Nadette simply put "Hollywood" style events. We are capable of so much more. Why we have to live in a misery of limitations? Why? Why this crazy cycle has to repeat itself? Why should I feel compassion towards something that will surely repeat in the future? Why? I don't think I should.

Yes I also see people going to colledges and becoming doctors as a waste of time. Not because they might discover something that would be useful for everyone else (like cure for AIDS), but because they will try to turn their position in money making scheme that they could get elsewhere that is acheivable for much less time they have spent in colledge. Again, another crazy human behavior that I can't stand to see and hear.

Posted By Nadette on 06 Jan 2012 04:08 PM
Look, I obviously don't have the whole picture here, but you did say that this woman is working extremely hard to just survive and provide for her kid, right? What else could she possibly be doing when she is already overworking herself just to survive? Even if you don't feel like she is contributing to the world and humanity, you have to respect that she has life a lot harder than you do and she is not just giving up....she is working so hard she doesn't get enough sleep! It sucks that her kid isn't getting all the advantages other kids get, but what is this woman supposed to do about that?

You should have compassion for everyone because every human being has inherent value. You mentioned earlier that all that matters is family (or something like that). But why is your own family more important than anyone else. In reality, we are all family. We are all related and we are all made of the same stuff. We all live and die and desire and suffer. You should have compassion for others simply because you somehow lucked out of having it as tough as they do. It is not like you can really earn privilege. You get lucky, you happen to make better decisions.... the whole way the world works is absurd. Being a good person doesn't guarantee you a happy life just as much as being evil or stupid doesn't guarantee you a bad life. You do your best and hope for the best and everyone else is doing the exact same thing.

Okay. I think it gets to the point that I initially didn't want to go, but I see no other choice.

Nadette look, she fucked up her own life. I didn't do that. She did. We all live in real life. We carry the consequences of our actions. You don't go free because you didn't know that there was a law against murdering a person "after" you murder that person. Nobody says to you "Oh you it's so unfortunate now that you will have to spend your life in prison, after all the other person is dead, why your life also has to be wrecked". Nobody says that. That's reality. You can't just kill someone and then say "I'm sorry I didn't know this was illegal". You still get into jail. Cause and consequences. People pay for their wrong doings. You can't avoid that. You see, the life is full of causes and consequences. It's not that you just experience that cause and consequences matter in child making only. You do it all the time. And by the time you become an adult and understand that, you should have developed a system where you could look at the consequences "before" you make that action. That's the first condition of survival once you decide to live among humans. You have no other choice. If you make a decision of becoming a mother while you cannot feed yourself or your future kid, how am I responsible for that? How anybody else is responsible for that? Nobody is responsible for that except the parents of the kid. Hell, the kid himself is not responsible for what happens to him. Nobody asked him if he wants to get born before he was born isn't he? He has no control over the process. The parents did. Nobody asked the kids parents to bring this kid into the world, only they did. Now, over the top of the fact that this mother has no contribution to others around her from which she sucks away resources without proper return, we should have compassion to her? We should find her likeable? And I should become clown to entertain her for my stupid dad to realize that an idiot is an idiot after all?

Give me a break.

And I should even consider her a "hero"?

I want a nice car too. But I don't rob a bank for money. I know it comes with the consequeces. Why am I should understand this while others don't? Do you they think they are entitled to this while I'm not? What kind of stupid world this is?

Are we here advocating someone having a cake and eating it too?