Msquared 
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| 06 Mar 2010 08:19 PM |
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WHY is it that everywhere I look on the internet, it says INTJ's and ENFP's make the bestest soulmates, yet me, an ENFP, and my mother, an INTJ (yet I think she is 50% N and 50% S, so she might have like, multiple personalities or something O_o) never ever EVER get along! We're constantly fighting. I'll admit, sometimes we can have quite.. interesting conversations, but as a whole, we freaking hate each other. |
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Zsych
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| 06 Mar 2010 08:31 PM |
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I think there's a difference in being able to enjoy someone's company as a friend, and having them be the representative of your own expectations - as a child.
As an INTJ's child, you were probably judged by INTJ criteria. She may have wanted you to be more independent, or need people less, or more in control of your emotions...
An INTJ/ISTJ cross is a somewhat unusual creature - or rather, as something like an ISTJ, you're dealing with even more difference than you might be with an INTJ, since to an S, we seem impractical and kinda crazy - not super promising attributes in a child.
I think most parents love and have high expectations from their children. You could consider the problems, an expression of her caring for you. Her wanting you to be alright, and be someone who will accomplish great things (and admittedly, not being sure that you will be  )
You may need to impress your mother for your relationship to recover. |
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sbalbom
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| 06 Mar 2010 11:23 PM |
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This is on average. Doesn't mean every INTJ and ENFp gets along etc.
Maybe she is an INTJ. Does she like organization or getting something done more.
If she is an ISTJ you will have problems. |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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Psyko
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| 07 Mar 2010 05:10 PM |
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Oh, it's unsettling to hear that you have an INTJ mom and that you hate each other. I would looove and be extremely happy if I had an ENFP child. Are you sure she's not an ISTJ?
Does she find conventions important? Does she follow the 'rules' of society and is concerned with what other people think of her? Is she 'here and now'? Does she have a lot of small anxieties and worries?
Or is she extremely independent, and find herself standing by her beliefs even if everybody think she's wrong? Is she really, really good at something? Is it important to her to be viewed as competent? Is she a theorist, lost in thought?
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Zsych
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| 07 Mar 2010 06:43 PM |
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With an ENFP child, I'd probably be somewhere between pleased and appalled.
As a child, an ENFP kid would probably be fine. I'm not too sure how happy I'd be if my child turned out to be an adult ENFP... short of the kid being super-creative (God Mode N).
http://changingminds.org/explanations/preferences/thinking_feeling.htm
Like I said, there's a difference between friends and children. That could just be me though... but we've heard this sentiment from two ENFP children of INTJ now. |
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alysaria
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| 07 Mar 2010 07:50 PM |
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I think INTJ parent, I think Sean Spencer's father in Psych....but that's with an ESFP son. >.> Training is geared toward creating an independent, knowledgable child who can think for him or herself.
ISTJ parent with an ENFP child is more along the lines of The Little Mermaid. Strict, structured....MY WORD IS LAW kind of thing, with massive stress over the child's rambling, undisciplined ways... Training is more along the lines of socially right and responsible.
Both have a tendency to be stressed and frustrated by an ENFP, but the ISTJ is going to find less humor in the situation.... |
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Zsych
MBTI: xNTx
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| 07 Mar 2010 11:14 PM |
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I wonder if its possible for me to have a child grow up to be ESFP. I'd probably have them philosophizing and controlling emotions as a kid. |
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Msquared
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| 08 Mar 2010 06:08 AM |
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Does she find conventions important? Does she follow the 'rules' of society and is concerned with what other people think of her? Is she 'here and now'? Does she have a lot of small anxieties and worries?
Or is she extremely independent, and find herself standing by her beliefs even if everybody think she's wrong? Is she really, really good at something? Is it important to her to be viewed as competent? Is she a theorist, lost in thought?
The first paragraph is NOTHING like her. The second describes her pretty well. |
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Psyko
MBTI: INTJ
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| 08 Mar 2010 02:37 PM |
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Oh no, she's an INTJ then.. How disappointing. I was really hoping to peg her as an ISTJ. Oh well, maybe you can teach her about Myers Briggs and hope that it'll make her see that your preferences aren't 'wrong' - just different, and that you're not supposed to be a miniature version of herself. Maybe she can even appreciate you for who you are and see your strengths?
Learning about MBTI was a real eye opener for me, I've become more accepting of other types and preferences and I'm more mellow now, I think. The first time I read about NFs, I thought to myself: 'Wait, such idealistic people, seeing the good in everyone and everything actually exist?' I had to read the theory and presentation about 3 times and test my friends before I realized that you do exist and that Keirsey gives a pretty accurate description of you guys. I was blown away learning about NFs. I thought you were a bunch of spaced out tree huggers, until realizing that I had unknowingly surrounded myself with NF friends to balance myself. After having learned about you, I've become more sensitive to your needs and less rigid about my own needs, so for me it's been good, I'd even say crucial for my interaction with NFs.
My best tip for your situation: Give her Keirsey's book "Please understand me II", ask her to read about NTs and NFs as a favour to you and then get back to you with her thoughts.
*Crossing my fingers for this to work...* |
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alysaria
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| 08 Mar 2010 05:16 PM |
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I wonder if its possible for me to have a child grow up to be ESFP. I'd probably have them philosophizing and controlling emotions as a kid. I know this is hard for you to understand, being all INTJ and mastermindish and confident in your ability to do anything.....but you don't really have the power to change your child's personality. An ESFP will just tune you out until you gave up. You'd have to pick your battles....and expect an ESFP to make up their own personal meaning for what you consider to be very clear instructions. I just remember a very INTJ line from Sean's dad in the opening of the episode with Shabby the Sea Lion. Sean and Gus were going to try to sneak into the dolphin tank and ride the dolphins....and Sean thought his dad was home sick, so they wouldn't have to worry about him chaperoning. However, as they start to plan their escapade, Sean's dad shows up and informs them that they left a map of the park at home with their plan detailed out. He chides Sean for not being sneakier. Sean asks his dad if he wants him to lie, to which his father responds "No, but if you do lie to me, at least make it a challenge for me to catch you" |
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Zsych
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| 08 Mar 2010 06:57 PM |
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You underestimate the full breadth of my knowledge, and my understanding of the human mind *laughs evilly*
You underestimate the power of the dark side. |
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alysaria
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| 08 Mar 2010 08:48 PM |
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Pfffft. I defy you. |
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Zsych
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| 08 Mar 2010 08:57 PM |
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That makes no difference, no child of mine will be allowed to be an S. The function types are trainable... Realistically I don't mind that a child have an overall ESFP preference, as long as the kid be capable. That really amounts to most of the function types being well developed...
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sbalbom
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| 08 Mar 2010 11:22 PM |
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That makes no difference, no child of mine will be allowed to be an S. The function types are trainable... Realistically I don't mind that a child have an overall ESFP preference, as long as the kid be capable. That really amounts to most of the function types being well developed... I feel life's tragic irony coming. muahaha |
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."
"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche |
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alysaria
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| 08 Mar 2010 11:30 PM |
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>.> The irony of ESFP sons and ESFJ daughters? "Daaaaaaad.....I haaaaave to go to this party! Everyone's going to be there! And I need money for a new outfit. I don't have anything I can possibly be seen in at *this* party!" |
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Zsych
MBTI: xNTx
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| 09 Mar 2010 12:00 AM |
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You wish. If I were really expecting to have children, I'd declare a challenge that my kids will outdo your kids That would be a funny challenge. |
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alysaria
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| 09 Mar 2010 12:04 AM |
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O.o I don't really see parenting as a competition.... And I don't expect to have children either. |
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Psyko
MBTI: INTJ
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| 09 Mar 2010 04:33 AM |
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@Zsych: You are an idiot!!!! I say it respectfully. There are limits to what an INTJ can accomplish. And that you even want to try troubles me, unless you are teasing us, testing us. I don't want an S child either, an ISTJ would be worst (ESFPs are fun at least,) but I welcome any child with any preference and with my knowledge of MBTI it should make things easierfor my child, not worse...
Your children aren't supposed to be little clones of yourself... |
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Zsych
MBTI: xNTx
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| 09 Mar 2010 09:06 AM |
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Not clones perhaps, but its your responsibility to raise them to be as capable as possible. And any child of mine is guaranteed to find life harder than the children around him, so that he may have the skills and mental strength as an adult that no one around him has.
Also, you assume that personalities are genetic instead of learned. The human mind is very malleable. The average parent just doesn't care to think about how they'll raise their child, thinking instead that they'll somehow just know the right way to do it... which leads to the existence of some truly pitiful adults. I'm not too impressed with how I turned out either, so I'd hardly like to repeat the mistakes that affect me.
@Alysaria: There was a time when there was competition, when people took pride in their childrens' accomplishments - some still do. When you're raising a child, you're doing more than just managing a pet and making sure its happy. You're raising a future adult, who will contribute to the world. Its worth it to want them to be greater, to put in effort in that direction... to have goals. Without goals, you can't measure progress, and if you've really brought someone into this world, you have some responsibility to them.
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Anyway, I view INTJ or ENFP as more a philosophy of life that we've developed as we grew up. A bias in how we view the world, and like I said, function types are trainable - as far as MBTI goes. Although I wouldn't be too specific in trying to control what my child thought - considering that the end goal has to be a person who can think, judge, and create for themselves. A child of mine need not have the same opinions as me... only as much ability as I can help him develop, and some of the correct biases (which is going to amount to NT ... I wonder if teaching discipline would almost amount to teaching someone to be J .. not by itself I think )
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Why would an ENFP not want children? (Actually I can guess)
*hugs Alysaria - softly* |
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Psyko
MBTI: INTJ
Age/Sex: Thirtysomething - Female
Relationship: Just got married to her amazing ENFP
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| 09 Mar 2010 10:38 AM |
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You are arguing child rearing based on what you have missed and what would be good for you when you grew up and you come to the conclusion that your child would need or want what you missed. The feeling of being a thinking, capable, judging, creative being is important to an INTJ or other NTs. If you were dealing with an NF that child would consider connecting with others and being true to self most important, SJs want to fit in and wouldn't necessarily understand what you mean when you say they need to think for themselves etc.etc.
Yes I'm assuming that preferences are innate, I've been raised without any N influence and have always felt like the odd one out, my parents tried to make me into a very obedient little SJ... That never worked, I questioned their intentions since I was able to speak... Why are you assuming preferences are learned? You consider the human mind very malleable. I dare you to morph into an ESFP!!! Just read about their preferences and become like them, but you can't act like them, you need to feel just like an ESFP. It would be impossible. And don't say that there's a 'golden' age for molding and after you've passed that age it wouldn't work. Do you also believe that gay people can 'unlearn' and get rid of their gayness and preference for the same sex?
I think you are mistaken about the average parent not thinking about how they raise their children. I think the most common mistake with parents and children is the one you are going to make apparently. Parents try to transfer their own values and preferences for things (not MBTI,) and fail to recognize the uniqueness of their child, not meeting the child on the child's terms. Let's say you have an above average intelligent parent with a below average intelligent child (nightmare, I know..) The parent recognizes education and training the brain as extremely important, wanting the child to go to prestigious schools etc. The parent would also probably be able to raise the child's IQ with a standard deviation or so, but not much more than that. And the child might go through a childhood not feeling good enough, feeling misunderstood and left out, instead of being given the opportunity to develop his or hers individual strengths which may not be the same as the parent. You have to look at what you've got to work with and adjust accordingly.
If you think back and read about the INTJ child, didn't you act like one? You don't recognize being INTJ as a child? How did you develop the philosophy of an INTJ? Why did you 'choose' INTJ as your preferences? Why didn't you go with something more mainstream as SJ? It'd be easier, I promise.
I think you are hugely mistaken when you view MBTI as a philosophy of life. I haven't come across any research that will back your idea.
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