@Psyko: Can I be ESFP - probably. I may not understand my mind as well as I may want, but that is not exactly undoable, although it would take some time and retraining. I'd need very very good reason to be choose to be ESFP though. Say ENTJ/ENTP/INTP, and I'd object less.

Can gay people can be changed - yes. I'm not sure how well the usual psychiatric approach works, but I think I could do it with enough time - and with enough freedom on what I can use. Especially if the subject was willing. I've changed my own sexual orientation for experiments' sake once... Up to the point of being able to feel attraction and desire for men. Its not very difficult if you understand what you're doing. But then, I have a lot of control over my mind (I was definitely not born that way)

You should really think of the human mind as a badly designed computer system with massive security holes.

.... I had written much more, but I don't think it suits an NF forum. I feel alien enough here as it is ... and I don't really like sharing too much knowledge and research

Still... what was mainly different about me as a kid was that I was proud. I had a strong sense of right and wrong, and I had an aversion to things that other people liked (by the time I was 4). I was very extroverted as a younger child. A slight difference in inclination becomes larger over time as you build ways of thinking on top of what you had developed earlier, and develop more systems on top of that.

How well do you remember your childhood Psyko? Feelings and emotions from then? Incliations and aversions? How early can you remember? Can you see the path of your evolution - who you could have been?

I can remember back before I could walk.

I can check almost every characteristic for an INTJ child that you listed alysaria. I remember hating kids even when I was very young, I thought they were childish (!!!) and pretty stupid. I started reading before I was 4 years old, my kindergarten kicked me out because I was too brainy for them. I wouldn't interact with the other kids, and was by myself reading, almost all day. I was sent to an International English school, so by the age of six I could read and write my own language as well as English. To say I had a disadvantage when I started school at the age of 7, with the other 'illiterate' normal kids, would be an understatement. I was normally pulled aside by my teachers, who gave me challenging tasks and books to read. If I'd grown up in the States and my parents could've afforded it, I think I would have loved going to a school for specially gifted children. We don't have those schools here. My parents have no education, and I remember realizing at a very early age, that my brain worked faster than theirs.

My grandfather made me a tiny wheelbarrow for me to bring books home from the library when I was 5 years old. I could spend whole days in the library, and filled the wheelbarrow with books and brought them home. The librarian called my parents a few times, just to check that it'd be ok for me to walk home by myself with my books in tow..  I hardly ever cried. My mum says I questioned her logic and methods for making me do stuff like bathe and put my clothes on, from the age of 2. When they imposed boundaries or restraints on me, and I didn't understand the logic behind it, it would usually take me very little time to work around it and find a loophole to get out of it. I realize now that I must have been a very challenging child for to SJ parents.

@Zsych: I think that you seem very immature and I find it hard to argue logically with you. I'd guess you are in your early twenties. You don't seem to understand the concept of sexual orientation as something that can't be unlearnt. Of course you can choose to turn your back on your sexual orientation and not practice, but you won't be able to fully enjoy and be turned on by something you don't feel deep down inside. You felt attraction and desire for men, that's easy. Did you also have sex with them and enjoyed it as much as you enjoy having sex with women? Could you be with women or men sexually for the rest of your life and feel happy and fulfilled? If that is the case you are bisexual. I don't think I'd believe any of the research you'd be able to cough up, that would back your argument for truly changing a person's sexual orientation. It's a weak argument to say that you don't feel it's right to share research and your 'knowledge' on the enfp forum. (You don't feel, so how can it not feel right?)

To me you seem like a very rigid person, who is afraid of emotion and thinks that emotions are of lesser value than logic. You are working too hard to appear like the stereotypical ice cold INTJ for me to believe you actually are one. You refer to the The dark lords of hell as an INTJ thing. What is that about?? That doesn't sound INTJ to me at all. Talk to me in ten years Zsych, hopefully you've matured and learned a few life lessons along the way! I wish you the best of luck.

Posted By Psyko on 10 Mar 2010 01:28 PM

My grandfather made me a tiny wheelbarrow for me to bring books home from the library when I was 5 years old. I could spend whole days in the library, and filled the wheelbarrow with books and brought them home. The librarian called my parents a few times, just to check that it'd be ok for me to walk home by myself with my books in tow..  I hardly ever cried. My mum says I questioned her logic and methods for making me do stuff like bathe and put my clothes on, from the age of 2. When they imposed boundaries or restraints on me, and I didn't understand the logic behind it, it would usually take me very little time to work around it and find a loophole to get out of it. I realize now that I must have been a very challenging child for to SJ parents.

Matilda!!! Soooo cute...FF to about 5:00...  (hm, for some reason embedding is not working )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNKrEmcSZ-k

I'm in agreement with Zsych on the sexual orientation issue. Today we believe we can choose our gender, but we can't choose what we do with our junk. Which is lunacy-- reality is the other way around.

I don't believe in ghosts like the "real me" either. You are what you do. Or, as Frank Sinatra put it, do be do be do.

"Science" attempting to demonstrate there is a gay gene is even more laughable. There might as well be genes for necrophilia. Or celibacy. Or pederasty. There logically cannot be a gay gene, because Natural Selection would put such a gene at a severe evolutionary disadvantage. This entails the behavior in the animal kingdom is learned, not innate.

Sure, someone could reply that a gay gene is recessive. To prove this, we need to explain the evolutionary advantage. Sickle-cell anemia, for instance, when recessive increases resistance to malaria. But such an explanation for homosexuality is a difficult task, especially given the diversity of strange sexual practices, even among heteros. There are people who get off on feet, scat, all sorts of stuff. Shall we postulate genes for this behavior too? Oh, the dogmas of a progressive age!

Posted By alysaria on 09 Mar 2010 07:16 PM

Some Characteristics of the ENFP Child-Some Behaviors to Look For

* Very high energy level here
* Very creative and imaginative young ones
* Will try to talk, express themselves at very young ages
* Very attuned to your feelings Mom and Dad…..very
* These kids can get loud…the energy of others (which is their fuel) cranks them….maturity (time) is the solution
* School is a great field and release for their powerful imagination
* These children see potential…and what could be…in everything!
* These kids (and adults) are great at beginnings….not so naturally good at finishing’s!
* You’ll find these kids intermediating between their friends to help them solve issues
* The ENFP child is playful, engaging….but has a short attention span….typically
* Very individualistic…now and as they grow older…get ready!
* No such thing as constructive criticism for the ENFP…at any age
* Will seek and warm to harmonious situations and environments…the opposite can destroy them!
* The ENFP thinks out loud

Hehe, I still think out loud...and get surprised when people ask me what I'm doing, as if they are the odd one (because they are)!

Unfortunately school was not a good place for me when I was younger because of the language barrier. I would talk, they'd respond in English. Somehow, though, I still thought we'd be able to communicate and understand one another (ENFP, of course I could still understand them!) But they'd end up laughing and saying I was weird. I think that's where my shyness comes from. Kids can be so cruel

Thanks for this information! *copy, paste, save for later..hopefully not to get lost* 

Try and be gay if you are hetero... Try to look at women who look so great you want to f*ck them as soon as you see them and don't feel anything. Now look at men magazines and masturbate because the guy on the front cover is good looking. You can't? Why is that so? Do i sense bad self-discipline? Then you just have to try harder! What, it isn't satisfying? Try harder! If you just try hard enough, you will be satisfied! You think that is disgusting? Then you obviously didn't try hard enough!

That is just silly, sorry.

I agree that there is no "gay gene", though, that is just ridicolous.

Now for some light-hearted conversation...

The thinking out loud 'issue' i know soooo well it's funny^^
Constructive critisicm... has to be learned.
Arguing parents... are hard.
Being individual... is important.

So, yes, i do clearly see myself in those ENFP traits^^

Need more smileys to forget the conflict bound to the above post...

*bling*

@Psyko: I'm 28, and I know the human mind and how it functions much better than you do.
You want to know how much control I have over my mind? I've just chosen to be happy to the point that my body was spasming from how awesome it was. That is control over emotions. You think I couldn't learn to take pleasure in being gay or learn to not want women? The reason I don't do it, is because I see no actual benefit in such a choice.
Most people just don't understand themselves very well, or care to, deluding themselves into thinking that they are somehow special individuals and that their behaviors and emotions are natural and unique to them.

Sure there are natural inclinations,sure I was different from most kids when I was young, but in humans, natural inclinations aren't very strong, and the human mind tends to mess up quite often - and it can also be taught to work better with specific training.

Anyway, as far as evolution of feelings go, look at the kinkier side of having sex and what some people try. Most people don't start off being okay with the more exotic stuff. Their emotional horizons evolve over time with experience, so that ideas that seemed revolting to begin with transform into new and unusual ways to feel pleasure... That's one way for a guy to learn to be attracted to other guys... slowly with sexual experimentation, until its also something exotic to be tried.

As for MBTI, it can and does change over life, if you are forced to use your other functions more by necessity (or if you choose to train them). You shouldn't be making an identity out of being INTJ.

As for my being ENTJ vs. INTJ, I relate more to the INTJ, although I didn't really hate on other kids as a kid... probably because I ignored anyone my intuition didn't judge to be worthwhile. Deep down, on an emotional level, I don't have a low opinion of other people, or at least how other people should ideally be... and that's because I've ignored people my whole life that weren't going to turn out to be respectable. I've only really dealt with people my intuition thought worthless, since college (so not cool )

I remember you saying something about being impressed with the idea of NFs looking at other people positively - you would be amazed at how far I've gone to try to find worth in people, despite all evidence to the contrary

... I started learning to read when I was around 2.5... I really should've grown up to be so much more awesome... I'm thoroughly unimpressed with how I've turned out so far - although its now again, a work in progress. I think I've mostly recovered from some of my more dangerous (read careless and over-optimistic) experiments.

btw Psyko, you seem like an adorable child. I wonder myself at what I could have done in a better environment more suited to developing my skills. That's actually what I would be doing with children of mine - developing their skills and understanding. As much as I'm very demanding, I don't look down on failures so I doubt my kids are going to be getting the opinion that I think they're worthless. Continuous effort, continuous improvement... only the farther you go, the more different you are from everyone else. Still, better one god than a thousand humans. Children of mine will have mental skills and mental control greater than mine... as tools they can use in their lives. Some things really are better learned when you're younger. So much extra work when you're older.

As for the Dark Lords of Hell - if you were less accepting thanks to the MBTI and the belief that people are supposedly who they are. What kind of world would you create, if you had the power to, and how would lets say - the average SF see it? Also, check out this thread:
Do INTJs have a Vibe @ INTJf 

Couple all of that with INTJs typically being intellectuals who think highly of themselves, and system builders with a certain degree of natural leadership ability, and also... the level of happiness of most INTJs

@Alysaria: Amusingly, I think out loud as well, and you'll actually hear me speak, or make gestures, if I'm thinking about something passionately in my head
Kinesthetic modality as primary - in an INTJ. LOL. Somehow the Kinesthetic preference isn't very common in the west, it is more so in the east.

I don't really think emotions are inferior (okay, maybe I do) so much as just a part of the human brain, and not necessarily one that gets useful results. I think emotions like thought, are tools for making choices, and handling situations... emotions IMO are usually short term animal style thought and problem solving - and humans are admittedly animals, so there's nothing actually wrong with that. Its not like I avoid emotions like caring about my friends, or stop wanting or choosing to help them and such. You just have to stop things from becoming problems. Also, maintaining calm, tends to amount to not feeling much emotion. People who run hard after emotions and thrills are a lot like drug addicts. Usually not achieving much but thinking their lives are awesome because they feel awesome.

Also...... looking at the INTJs at INTJForum, I rather think a lot of us intellectuals, who don't seem to be listening to our biological tendencies are going to be wiping ourselves out of the gene pool   - That really has to be considered a flaw
(What say you Psyko? Alternative route to avoiding re-incarnation? No bodies for us to inhabit here? )

And she wasn't really afraid of them. She smiled and waved....with a doll...and kind of played peek-a-boo.