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7th function - The Deceiving Role
Last Post 04 Apr 2010 01:26 AM by sbalbom. 34 Replies.
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18 Feb 2010 03:35 PM  

 

 The Deceiving Role (sometimes referred to as the 7th function)
The deceiving role fools us into thinking something is important to do or pay attention to. The process that fills this role is often not trusted or seen as worthy of attention, for when we do engage it, we may make mistakes in perception or in decision making. Then we feel double bound—trapped between two bad options. Yet this role can have a positive side as it provides comic relief. Then we can laugh at ourselves. It can be refreshing and join with the relief role as we recharge ourselves through play.  

 

 

 

So I find when I use my Ti: sit and logically think about things it makes me laugh.  The more I use logic, the more silly the world seems.

For me to get things done, I can’t really plan it out.  I just have to do things (Te) and they build themselves. Projects, spreadsheets just ‘emerge’ for me.

I guess I don’t use Ti much unless in a debate. BUT this leads to a question.  Other ENFPs out there:  When you sit and ponder logically, does the world seem silly?

INTJs, your 7th function is Fe.  When you conceder the feelings and motivations of others, do you find them silly?

INTPs? How about Se?

 http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/enfp.html

 http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/16types.html

 

 

The Shadow Processes
The other four cognitive processes operate more on the boundaries of our awareness. It is as if they are in the shadows and only come forward under certain circumstances. We usually experience these processes in a negative way, yet when we are open to them, they can be quite positive.

 

The Opposing Role (sometimes referred to as the 5th function)
The opposing role is often how we get stubborn and argumentative—refusing to “play” and join in whatever is going on at the time. It might be easy for us to develop skill in the process that plays this role, but we are likely to be more narrow in our application of this skill, and it will likely take more energy to use it extensively. In its positive aspect, it provides a shadow or depth to our leading role process, backing it up and enabling us to be more persistent in pursuit of our goals.

The Critical Parent Role (sometimes referred to as the 6th function)
The critical parent role is how we find weak spots and can immobilize and demoralize others. We can also feel this way when others use the process that plays this role. It is often used sporadically and emerges more often under stressful conditions when something important is at risk. When we engage it, we can go on and on. To access its positive side of discovery, we must learn to appreciate and be open to it. Then it has an almost magical quality and can provide a profound sense of wisdom.

The Deceiving Role (sometimes referred to as the 7th function)
The deceiving role fools us into thinking something is important to do or pay attention to. The process that fills this role is often not trusted or seen as worthy of attention, for when we do engage it, we may make mistakes in perception or in decision making. Then we feel double bound—trapped between two bad options. Yet this role can have a positive side as it provides comic relief. Then we can laugh at ourselves. It can be refreshing and join with the relief role as we recharge ourselves through play.

The Devilish Role (sometimes referred to as the 8th function)
The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness.

 

If I’m trying to get people to be silly and laugh does it seem a good way to target 7th function?

 

 

 

 

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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."

"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche

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18 Feb 2010 03:45 PM  
Feelings - often silly? Yes. Actions and views that are very ill thought-out, they seem to me.
But then I think feelings are just a primitive version of thought with more of a link to your instincts (and thus some - questionable - value)
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18 Feb 2010 05:13 PM  
May I plead the fifth to your question Saul?
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19 Feb 2010 02:39 AM  
Your attempt to evade has answered the question.
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20 Feb 2010 03:16 AM  
I found a a description of the 8 functions on http://www.famoustype.com/functions.htm and once i read that paragraph:


Ti - I want to analyze the structure and placement of the fence.


I had to laugh. Doing that just seemed silly for me. If i imagine myself doing that, i have to laugh a bit more. lol.
"Oh yeah, a fence is a really interesting thing (Pling!->lightbulb appearing with myself looking intently at it, looking grim-funny), it is interesting to note that it always faces rectangular out of the ground. (Plonk! a fence appears in a grassy meadow, perfectly rectangular to the ground) Which is why it doesn't just fall down. (Whooops! It falls down and then immeadiatly stands up right again)"
You get the idea. I just cannot take it too seriously when doing it myself. I like to say "The head might know what is good, but the heart knows what's right", and i think it's better to go with my gut. I'm always happier afterwards, because i know i made the right decision. (By the way, it's only half a year or so since i really started trusting it)

Also, i think i know one ENTP who says i am funny (ENTPs have Ne Ti Fe Si, so Fi is their 7th) when i am myself. Even more so when i am serious. While he often takes me serious when i am silly. lol. I often have problems finding out if he is serious or not.

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20 Feb 2010 01:09 PM  
I had to laugh.


Thats funny, I just laughed too! I don't understand. I mean, i understand the theory, but its weired. Its like LOGIC is our silly switch.

now, so Fi, is the ENTP silly switch and Fi is the INTJ silly switch and Se is the silly switch for INTPs.

How do I get you other types to be silly? How do I make an INTJ laugh with Fe. or ENTP laugh with Fi?



Also, i think i know one ENTP who says i am funny (ENTPs have Ne Ti Fe Si, so Fi is their 7th) when i am myself. Even more so when i am serious. While he often takes me serious when i am silly. lol. I often have problems finding out if he is serious or not.


I can see how this would be communication problem with ENTP v ENFP
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"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche

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20 Feb 2010 01:26 PM  
I've learned never to take anything an ENTP says too seriously most of the time. ><
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21 Feb 2010 06:40 AM  
Ah yes alysaria, this i have learned too. It's still hard to decide when they are serious and when not.

Back on topic:
If the 7th function heavily influences the kind of humor a person has, it might be worthwile to research it, since humor plays such a big role in interpersonal relationships. If it doesn't play a big role in humor, but plays a big role in what we take as serious, it would still be worthwile, since the second (supportive role) function of one person being the same as the 7th (unserious role) in another person could lead to communication problems were you want to be serious (which is what the supportive role is good at as helping/supporting is a serious thing) and the other thinks you are unserious or silly. Since they are crossed, it works both ways and for both persons.
Also, ESFPs (Se Fi Te Ni) should have a similar humor to us - which is interesting, since they are sensors and we are intuitives.

So...
ENFP+ESFP <=> ENTP+ESTP (Second Fi meets Second Ti, communication problem??) - Ti humor versus Fi humor
INFP+INTP <=> ISFP+ISTP (Second Ne meets Second Se, communication problem??) - Se humor versus Ne humor (we must be hilarious to ISFPs and ISTPs^^)
INFJ+ISFJ <=> INTJ+ISTJ (Second Fe meets Second Te, communication problem??) - Te humor versus Fe humor
ENFJ+ENTJ <=> ESFJ+ESTJ (Second Ni meets Second Si, communication problem??) - Si humor versus Ni humor

ENFP has Te as third which fits to the INFJ Ti third => "Creative function" triggers humor in other person? (Btw, i aligned the types in a way that you go 2 down and then have a type which mirrors 3rd-7th with your type, going 2 down and then going one right gives you a type which mirrors 2nd-3rd)

The being funny to ISFPs i think i can relate to. I know one ISFP - artist trough and trough, studies composition and is good at art. Strong values too (dominant Fi). He once said: "Your strength is... humor. You just be yourself and the thinghs you naturally think of and do are funny."

By the way, how do you fellow ENFPs get along with ENFJs? INTJs, how are INTPs and vice versa? 1st-6th function crossing... (Occours when you have one P and one J of otherwise same types) unnerving most of the time, but sometimes very insightfull.

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21 Feb 2010 11:24 AM  

Cannot edit it, just wanted to say that this is of course purely theorethical. Still needs proof.

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04 Mar 2010 03:18 AM  
Just now the strangest thing happend to me... it was like this:
I was sitting, a little depressed, in my room. Then i began to logically disrupt my problems - like "i cannot be another person than i am, so trying to be makes no sense", then i somehow i had to laugh, my mood lifted somehow, and now i don't even know what problems they were... Did the deceiver play a trick on me?

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04 Mar 2010 12:39 PM  
Okay, that makes sense. The original subject I mean. When I was in school and they told us to write an outline so that we could then write our paper using the outline as it's foundation, I thought that was completely silly. Who needs to follow an outline and who could even create from something that is so... concrete? I would write the paper as it came to me and then make the stupid outline from the paper I'd written.

Silly outlines. Who needs em?
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04 Mar 2010 12:40 PM  

Oh, and I try as hard as possible not to be logical. Maybe that's why I'm so depressed?


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04 Mar 2010 12:45 PM  
Oh, and I have a question. I just made my best friend take the MBTI. She's a ENTJ and we have so much in common and we totally get each other. What difference does the FP/TJ make? I know this is a very novice question but I just can't get myself to read all about the functions and blah blah blahs. I'd much rather interact and learn.
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04 Mar 2010 02:24 PM  
T v F just means you rely more on your emotions to make judgements where your friends relies on logic....but they don't exclude one another, and you usually won't have an issue unless you've got STRONG opposite preferences. Where one thinks the other is HEARTLESS AND CRUEL because of their lack of HUMANITY!! And the other completely disregards anything that isn't absolutely logical...the slightest trace of emotion brought in makes the entire argument invalid and overdramatic. Blah.

P v J is just structure. J's prefer some semblance of structure....with time, money, organization, etc. P's are more loose and prefer freedom within chaos. Then again, every type....and every person within that type....will have their own ideas of structure. INFJs for example are more internally structured.....so their outside world can be cluttered, but their minds are organized and categorized to perfection. And an ENFP could be a clean freak, but their mind is so crazy and chaotic that they have no concept of time and are either late or really early to everything....and that isn't just arriving, but leaving as well. It can be an issue if the J thinks the P is being disrespectful of their time....but a good J can be a great influence for helping the P be more aware.

ENTJ has the same functions as an INTJ....just in a different order. Instead of Ni Te Fi Se it's Te Ni Se Fi. Kinda like how INFPs are just flip-flopped function-wise to ENFPs. There are going to be alot of similarities, but very glaring differences. An ENTJ is a general and an INTJ is a mastermind. An ENTJ has no problem being at the head of the cavalry, bolstering the troops in preparation for a charge. They're confident and somewhat demanding leaders. INTJs, on the other hand, while also being confident and demanding, are less likely to be out in the open, shouting orders. They're more likely to be in a tent, plotting moves and sending out their trusted sergeants to deploy the troops. Both are master strategists, but the INTJ watches from a distance and disdains the trappings of leadership, while the ENTJ is right there in the fray, with no problems being the commander.
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04 Mar 2010 02:26 PM  
Okay, that makes sense. The original subject I mean. When I was in school and they told us to write an outline so that we could then write our paper using the outline as it's foundation, I thought that was completely silly. Who needs to follow an outline and who could even create from something that is so... concrete? I would write the paper as it came to me and then make the stupid outline from the paper I'd written.

Silly outlines. Who needs em?


I apparently read this page in reverse!

>.> Yea, I used to make it a game to write a paper on what I wanted, manage a way to fit it into the topic, and barely follow the outline.
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05 Mar 2010 12:00 AM  
@danstar:

Check out and learn what functions are. At least yours: Ne Fi Te Si
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"You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star..."

"....And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Nietzsche

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05 Mar 2010 01:27 AM  
http://typelogic.com/enfp.html



I like the descriptions of the functions on this site, personally ^_^

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21 Mar 2010 03:29 AM  
Yeah, even though I know logic is rational, I laugh at how silly it can get.
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21 Mar 2010 03:30 PM  
I was reading a romance novel today....and I completely understood the main female character's logic....which was strange, which made me realize just how crazy ENFP logic really is... O.O

Apparently it's ok to kidnap someone as long as he provoked it with blackmail....but only if he isn't tricked into a meeting where he'll get jumped by 2 men and hit from behind....and he is to be let go immediately and tended to if he burns his wrists trying to release his bindings with a candle. Yet...if the object of blackmail is returned without coercion, it will be returned immediately with indignity...or paid for fairly. >.> Fi logic....is so random. It really doesn't make any sense to anyone but the one feeling it.
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21 Mar 2010 05:49 PM  
As an ENTP, I am here to abruptly state that any claims that logic is nonsense are nonsensical. Most of the examples you have provided rest on logical fallacies. I take this quote as an example:
Posted By TheJan on 04 Mar 2010 02:18 AM
Just now the strangest thing happend to me... it was like this:
I was sitting, a little depressed, in my room. Then i began to logically disrupt my problems - like "i cannot be another person than i am, so trying to be makes no sense", then i somehow i had to laugh, my mood lifted somehow, and now i don't even know what problems they were... Did the deceiver play a trick on me?

A big difference between Fi and Ti is the difference between thinking holistically and thinking specifically.

The first statement "I cannot be another person than I am" is clear common sense. It is what it is, matter of fact. An orange can not be what it is not. It is an orange.

The second statement "so trying to be makes no sense" is on an entirely different plane. Trying to be another person implies that you are trying to adopt the characteristics of someone else, or change your personality to fit theirs; not that you are attempting to defy common sense.

You're mixing things together. First your talking about logic, and then you're talking about personality. You established truth about one subject, and then attempted to carry it into another.

It doesn't work. Personality is variable.

Here's the paradox: If you try to be another person and succeed, you are now that person. 

 


 

 

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